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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
So you like them... But you're sitting here denying that they even have an identity?

If Jews have a valid claim to the land then so do the Arabs.
do you read?

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The Jews have been in the region, and in Jerusalem, for more than 3000 years. I think that gives them a pretty good claim to the area.
as opposed to the arabs, who were nomadic and never considered any particular territory to be 'theirs' or the muslims who arrived on the scene nearly 2 millennia after the jews

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There never has been a Palestinian state. Never a government of Palestine.
this is the point you really dont get. palestine is not a historic entity. read that again until you understand it. the 'palestinians' are a fabrication.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by hot dragon View Post
do you read?


as opposed to the arabs, who were nomadic and never considered any particular territory to be 'theirs' or the muslims who arrived on the scene nearly 2 millennia after the jews



this is the point you really dont get. palestine is not a historic entity. read that again until you understand it. the 'palestinians' are a fabrication.
Do Americans not have a valid claim to America because they weren't the first ppl here?
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #43
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Do Americans not have a valid claim to America because they weren't the first ppl here?
wrong question.

do the first nation people/ native american indians have a valid claim to ownership of at least some of mainland america.

oh, yes. and white america has recognised that and now native americans do own some land. not all of it, sure, the conquerors were victorious, but the natives are not entirely extinct, and they have their own territories.

do the jews have a valid claim to ownership of at least some of the middle east. not all of it, the conquering muslim armies have occupied and claimed the middle east and north africa for centuries now, but the jews were not entirely extinct. and they have, by right, their own territory.

but you want to ignore the rest of the middle east, all of which was given to arab rulers, and focus only on the bit given to the jews. in that particular territory there is anger from the arabs who wanted it partitioned so that a lot of the jewish territory gets taken back and made arab again. but hang on, thats ALREADY HAPPENED. originally, the jewish homeland included territory that is now israel AND jordan. but the arabs didnt want the jews to have so much and insisted the jewish homeland be segregated, so the jewish homeland has already lost a large part of itself to arab complaints.

remember, palestinians are not banned from israel. there are plenty of palestinian citizens of israel, there are palestinian members of parliament. palestinians have more rights in israel than they do in most arab countries.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:16 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by hot dragon View Post
do you read?


as opposed to the arabs, who were nomadic and never considered any particular territory to be 'theirs' or the muslims who arrived on the scene nearly 2 millennia after the jews



this is the point you really dont get. palestine is not a historic entity. read that again until you understand it. the 'palestinians' are a fabrication.
How many of the Jews in Israel are actually direct descendants of the Israelites of the bible who stayed in the area and how many had their reasonably recent predecessors move there from Europe, the Americas and such?
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:38 PM   #45
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How many of the Jews in Israel are actually direct descendants of the Israelites of the bible who stayed in the area and how many had their reasonably recent predecessors move there from Europe, the Americas and such?
The people who stayed are literally considered to be Palestinians. But, they never existed according to his logic lol.

Meanwhile, a bunch of people from Europe have more of a valid claim to the area than ppl who have lived there for hundreds of years. Sound familiar?
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #46
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wrong question.
That's a pretty valid question since it is literally the exact same scenario.

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do the first nation people/ native american indians have a valid claim to ownership of at least some of mainland america.

oh, yes. and white america has recognised that and now native americans do own some land. not all of it, sure, the conquerors were victorious, but the natives are not entirely extinct, and they have their own territories.
But "Native Americans" is a term invented by the government. There was never a country called "America" before 1776. "Native Americans" were a bunch of different nations and tribes with their own cultures.

You see how flawed this logic is?

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do the jews have a valid claim to ownership of at least some of the middle east. not all of it, the conquering muslim armies have occupied and claimed the middle east and north africa for centuries now, but the jews were not entirely extinct. and they have, by right, their own territory.
The Palestinians should have their own territory as well then.

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but you want to ignore the rest of the middle east, all of which was given to arab rulers, and focus only on the bit given to the jews. in that particular territory there is anger from the arabs who wanted it partitioned so that a lot of the jewish territory gets taken back and made arab again. but hang on, thats ALREADY HAPPENED. originally, the jewish homeland included territory that is now israel AND jordan. but the arabs didnt want the jews to have so much and insisted the jewish homeland be segregated, so the jewish homeland has already lost a large part of itself to arab complaints.
No I'm not. We're talking about Israel and Palestine.

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remember, palestinians are not banned from israel. there are plenty of palestinian citizens of israel, there are palestinian members of parliament. palestinians have more rights in israel than they do in most arab countries.
They're not citizens. They're cheap labor. There is still a lot of discrimination and prejudice towards Arabs in Israel.

https://www.irinnews.org/investigati...an-work-israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism...y_Israeli_Jews

Last edited by Gordy; October 18th, 2017 at 09:46 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 11:23 PM   #47
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How many of the Jews in Israel are actually direct descendants of the Israelites of the bible who stayed in the area
i have no idea.

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and how many had their reasonably recent predecessors move there from Europe, the Americas and such?
i have no idea.

why is this relevant? ALL of them are descendants of the jews who lived in that region thousands of years ago. thousands of years before the "palestinians" were fabricated.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 11:28 PM   #48
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The Palestinians should have their own territory as well then.
they do. its called jordan

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No I'm not. We're talking about Israel and Palestine.
yes. palestine originally included all of what is israel, gaza, the west bank and jordan. the arabs insisted palestine be segregated into a muslim part and a jewish part. they got their wish, the muslim part of palestine is now called jordan. jordan is arab palestine.

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Old October 19th, 2017, 12:03 AM   #49
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The people who stayed are literally considered to be Palestinians. But, they never existed according to his logic lol.

Meanwhile, a bunch of people from Europe have more of a valid claim to the area than ppl who have lived there for hundreds of years. Sound familiar?
what were the people living there calling themselves prior to 1920?

hint: NOT palestinians. the term "palestinian" didnt exist until the jewish homeland was created in 1920. and palestinian meant "citizen of the jewish homeland"

there have been communities of jews in what is now israel continuously for at least 3 thousand years. the jewish population rose from 1870 to 1920 significantly due to immigration, but there was always a jewish presence.

the rules of war were different back then. the french and british had just defeated the ottomans in war. that meant the french and british OWNED that part of the world. spoils of war, it was now theirs, to do whatever they wanted. previously when they had defeated the locals in places like australia and canada, they just colonised and incorporated new territory into their global empires. this time they didnt, they broke it up into various new nations and installed rulers (mostly dictators).

the section they named palestine was intended to be a jewish state as a way of correcting what pretty much everyone agreed was a historic wrong. the jews had for thousands of years been a stateless people, here was the perfect opportunity to recreate their own state in the part of the world it had historically existed.

this was unanimously agreed to by the league of nations, forerunner to the united nations. it wasnt a half baked one way occupation forced on anyone, it was entirely legal and entirely agreed to internationally. it wasnt a process of 'evicting' the 'palestinians' from their land, nobody was evicted and there were no 'palestinians'. the land was given a new political identity, and everyone who was there now had that new identity.

there were lots of new identities created at that time the people to the east of palestine suddenly woke up one morning and discovered they were now iraqis. thats new, for centuries they were ottoman. to the north the population was suddenly lebanese and syrian. the house of saud won a civil war and imposed "saudi arabian" onto much of the arabian peninsula. and in palestine they were now palestinians. but everyone was now palestinian, there were palestinian jews and palestinian muslims and palestinian christians. palestinian meant citizen of the jewish homeland, it most definitely did not refer to a particular group of arabs. it might have worked well for everyone, except the islamists tried to "drive the jews into the sea" and insisted on war instead of peace. the islamists in all the new middle east countries also evicted thousands of jews from villages and cities where they had lived for generations, saying theres a new jewish land for you now, you arent welcome here any more.

anyway, the majority of the people who now use the term 'palestinian' today were never citizens there anyway, they were guest workers, employed by jews who were migrating to the jewish homeland of palestine. at the time the jewish homeland of palestine was going through an economic boom and a lot of arabs needed work. but they mostly trace their ancestry back to egypt or yemen. they have absolutely no claim to the jewish homeland.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 03:11 AM   #50
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I believe that active action must be taken in the field of anti-fascist information war. In order to weaken the call of the ayatollahs «to free Jerusalem,» active action must be taken in the matter of control over the holy places of Jerusalem. The essence of the proposal is that, instead of partitioning or internationalizing Jerusalem, we may exercise joint control over the holy places of Israel and Palestine. Representatives of denominations of Judaism, Islam and Christianity will participate in such monitoring. It will be possible to invite ayatollahs as well, as the representatives of Shiite believers. Instead of war, let them free Jerusalem through cooperation. If they refuse such an offer, they will assume full responsibility for the forthcoming victims of the war, which they initiate under pretext of «freeing Jerusalem».

Also, we must recognize the independence of Palestine and maintain the occupation of the Palestinian territories, as required by the security of Israel, especially in view of the approaching war with the ayatollah-fascists seeking their «World Caliphate», namely, world domination.
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