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Old January 7th, 2018, 11:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by houseknight View Post
Biblical claims have moral value or maybe explain Jewish nostalgia, but are outdated from legal point of view. Legally, Jews do have rights as permanent inhabitants of this country,
That's according to Israeli law that a Jew born anywhere in the world has some 'right of return' to a land he has no actual claim to aside from biblical accounts(that don't match archaeological data) in books written over 2000 years ago
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who in addition have purchased significant part of land.
Mostly from absentee landlords who weren't paying land taxes during the era of the Ottoman Empire...while the people living on those lands generation after generation considered their occupancy to be the only proof of ownership needed...not hard to figure out how fighting started with each aliyah of European Jews arriving to move into lands purchased for them.
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Current Israel inhabitants living there permanently, especially those born in Israel, do have legal rights to this land.
Are you talking Israel-proper or those recent arrivals and homeless Jews being moved into occupied territories?
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Finally, Muslims claim their rights on the legal basis of their 7-th century conquest (see HAMAS' Charter). If so, why does Jewish conquest from 1948 is less legal?
Sounds like a good time to review how and why Hamas got to where it is in the first place:
With its takeover of Gaza after the 1967 war with Egypt, Israel hunted down secular Palestinian Liberation Organization factions, but dropped the previous Egyptian rulers' harsh restrictions against Islamic activists.[19] In fact, Israel for many years tolerated and at times encouraged Islamic activists and groups as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO and its dominant faction, Fatah.[19][20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...te_note-WSJ-19
https://web.archive.org/web/20090926...295011847.html
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The International law considers legitimate just the last of mutually coordinated border lines. Last agreement coordinating Israel-Palestine border line was signed in 1998 (Wye Plantation agreement).
Where we find:
On 18 December 1998, the Clinton administration and the EU declared their contentment about the implementation of the first phase of the Memorandum by both sides.[2] Israel, however, had only implemented stage 1 of the further redeployment (F.R.D.), meaning that it had withdrawn from 2% of Area C instead of the required 13%.[3][4] Both parties accused each other of not fulfilling its share of responsibilities under the Wye River Memorandum, and the further implementation of the agreement remained unfinished.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye_River_Memorandum
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Old January 7th, 2018, 11:45 PM   #42
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I may agree, that the West Bank and especially Gaza are Bantustan-like states. But who initiated this state of affairs?
If we're talking 'who started it' we have to go back to the beginning, before the modern state of Israel was created, and before Arab territories were seized and divided up for foreigners.
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Those were just Palestinians. They undermined Oslo agreements on their own will, being incited by their own islamists, Iran and western "lefties". Just Palestinians have destroyed common industrial and infrastructure projects, forced construction of "Apartheid Wall", that is Defensive Fence, re-occupation of Palestine by Israel (2002), Gaza blockade after HAMAS' putsch and rocket barrages to Israel. Just Palestinian terror forced paving bypass roads to Jewish towns and villages.
In my other post, I quoted examples of how Israel undermined the Oslo Accords and that Wye Plantation Agreement you consider the final word on the subject, so no need to repeat it again here.
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In another hand, I'm witnessing excellent "private roads" and interchanges to any big or small Arab village in Israel. Any street in my Jewish town bears name in Hebrew, Arab and English language. Arabs learning for driver's licence, prefer Jewish towns, because of clear signs and drivers, obeying laws.
And how exactly are these Arabs driving in and out of these Jewish towns?

ISRAEL’S SEGREGATED ROADS

One of the most blatant examples of the segregation imposed by Israel on Palestinians is the system of roads built in the West Bank exclusively for Israeli Jewish settlers. West Bank Palestinians are denied the right to travel on these segregated roads. The separate road system for Palestinians is often unpaved and in some cases is little more than a trail, rather than an actual road.


Meanwhile, a modern freeway system designed to link illegal Jewish settlements to each other and to Israel proper has been built for Jewish Israelis. Vehicles with Palestinian licenses are completely prohibited from traveling on approximately 105 kilometers of West Bank roads, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem. Palestinians can travel on the remaining 180 kilometers of Israeli-built roads in the West Bank only if they can obtain a special permit or if they travel in an ambulance. The Israeli road system crisscrosses the West Bank in a way that seems designed to prevent the formation of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state.


Within Israel itself, Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza are prohibited from driving on Israeli roads. Israeli citizens also cannot bring Palestinians into Israel through passages designated for Israelis only.


Sources:

“Separate and Unequal,” a report by Human Rights Watch.
An Israeli in Palestine, by Jeff Halper.
"Restriction of Movement," by B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the OccupiedTerritories. http://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_mo..._and_forbidden

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Anf finally, Me personally witnessed, that my Jewish relatives in South Africa live in "Whitestan neighborhoods", fenced by 15-meter "Apartheid Walls". I strongly recommend all SA visitors not to walk on foot, only by car. Political changes in SA haven't destroyed apartheid, only changed facade.
I see! No need to explain further...blacks are savages and we should have listened to Reagan, Thatcher and the forces of fascism in Israel and elsewhere who argued that the west needed to continue supporting white rule in South Africa or Africa would fall to communism.....which, by the way has turned out exactly the opposite! And your Jewish relatives in South Africa have to live behind walls because South Africa got democracy but not economic equality after the end of Apartheid! You can say or imply whatever racist shit you want about Africans, but wherever there are sharp lines between haves and have-nots, there is going to be more violence, unrest, crime and every other marker on the misery index, no matter whether we're talking about South Africa, Brazil, Columbia, or some major American cities.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 05:24 AM   #43
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There are Palestinians in the Israeli Knesset.

What you need to ask how many Jews are in the Palestinian Authority
How many are there? BTW, when you say Palestinians, they are predominantly, if not all, Muslims, right?
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Old January 8th, 2018, 11:33 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by houseknight View Post
Previous variety of HAMAS' Charter is based on Hadith, which recalls Caliph's letter to Muslim conquerors from 7-th century. According to this letter, all lands of Syria and Iraq turn Muslim property. However, Christian and Jewish inhabitants were allowed to continue cultivating their lands under condition of paying taxes to Muslims. Actually, by depriving Palestine Jews of their lands, Palestinian Muslims have violated in the course of many centuries this last commandment.

The freshest version of HAMAS' Charter (2017) avoids to mention a reason, why does "Zionist Entity" should be annihilated, and doesn't establish legal right of the Palestinians to the Holy Land. Simply, the Palestinians do have rights, while the Jews don't.
It seems to me that the Palestinians ARE, so to speak, the old testament Jews - in the sense that, like may other peoples, they have changed their religion over and over again. So the Caliph write letters to early Muslims as they fought back against the expanding empires of the Middle East as they attempted to enforce their religions? What's that got to do with the question? You seem to be making noises and nothing else.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 11:35 AM   #45
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How many are there? BTW, when you say Palestinians, they are predominantly, if not all, Muslims, right?
Many belong to a religion unknown in America called Christianity.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 11:46 AM   #46
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Many belong to a religion unknown in America called Christianity.
How is it that one minute we're talking about International Law, another minute this topic goes to a Jewish v Muslim battle and now we're making it basically a religious issue?

I started out asking a simple question and this is the worst song and dance I've ever gotten on any topic.

Suppose that someone doesn't have a clue as to what your position is. You're explaining it to someone without a dog in the fight. I've heard Palestinians moaning that they were kicked out of their own country and had their homes taken. Okay, the Jews have a side. Can you make it simple and tell me, without being overly technical, what you think the issue boils down to?
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Old January 8th, 2018, 12:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Mostly from absentee landlords who weren't paying land taxes during the era of the Ottoman Empire...while the people living on those lands generation after generation considered their occupancy to be the only proof of ownership needed...not hard to figure out how fighting started with each aliyah of European Jews arriving to move into lands purchased for them.
Are you talking Israel-proper or those recent arrivals and homeless Jews being moved into occupied territories?
https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp...-appendix2.pdf

"The League of Nations Mandate When the League of Nations conferred the Mandate for Palestine upon Great Britain in 1922, it expressly stipulated that «The Administration of Palestine . . . shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency . . . close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes» (Article 6), and that it «shall introduce a land system appropriate to the needs of the country, having regard, among other things, to the desirability of promoting the close settlement and intensive cultivation of the land.» (Article 11) British policy, however, followed a different course, deferring to the extremist Arab opposition to the above-mentioned provision of the Mandate. Of some 750,000 dunams of cultivable State lands, 350,000, or nearly half, had been allotted by 1949 to Arabs and only 17,000 dunams to Jews. This was in clear violation of the terms of the Mandate.
…………..
six families, of whom two lived in Syria, received a combined area of about 7,000 dunams; four families (some living in Egypt) received a combined area of 3,496 dunams; another received 3,450 and yet another, 1,350. Thus the Ghor-Mudawwarra Agreement was instrumental in creating a new group of large landowners. Possessing huge tracts, most of which they were unable to till, these owners began to sell the surplus lands at speculative prices.
……………
hundreds of millions of dollars were paid by Jewish buyers to Arab landowners. Official records show that in 1933 £854,796 was paid by Jewish individuals and organizations for Arab land, mostly large estates; in 1934 the figure was £1,647,836 and in 1935, £1,699,488. Thus, in the course of only three years £4,202,180 (more than 20 million dollars at the prevailing rate of exchange) was paid out to Arab landowners (Palestine Royal Commission Report, 1937). To understand the magnitude of the prices paid for these lands, we need only look at some comparative figures. In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year rich black soil in the state of Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre (U.S. Department of Agriculture).
Effects on Arab Population In those instances where as a result of such transactions Arab tenant-farmers were displaced (on one year’s notice), compensation in cash or other land was paid, as required by the 1922 Protection of Cultivators Ordinance; the Jewish land-buying associations often paid more than the law required (Pollack and Boehm, The Keren Kayemeth Le-Israel). Of 688 such tenants between 1920 and 1930, 526 remained in agricultural occupations, some 400 of them finding other land (Palestine Royal Commission Report, 1937, Chapter 9, para. 61)."

MY COMMENT:
Jews purchasing land in Palestine have had no means to force Arab tenants from their land. Instead, such force possessed British authorities, cooperating with Arab landlords. Both Jews who paid for land, and Arab tenants fell victims of this large-scale British- Arab scam.

Last edited by houseknight; January 8th, 2018 at 01:14 PM.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 12:47 PM   #48
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That's according to Israeli law that a Jew born anywhere in the world has some 'right of return' to a land he has no actual claim to aside from biblical accounts(that don't match archaeological data) in books written over 2000 years ago
The Return Law was adopted shortly after Holocaust with the purpose to give Jews the shelter from persecutions and mass murder. It was instrumental at time, providing Arab Jews a chance to flee persecutions. The Jews of Soviet Union were given such chance, too, however only part of them have immigrated to Israel. "The Shelter" itself turned out persecuted entity. Me personally realized this true, when Saddam Hussein battered us in 1991.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 01:51 PM   #49
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And how exactly are these Arabs driving in and out of these Jewish towns?

ISRAEL’S SEGREGATED ROADS

One of the most blatant examples of the segregation imposed by Israel on Palestinians is the system of roads built in the West Bank exclusively for Israeli Jewish settlers. West Bank Palestinians are denied the right to travel on these segregated roads. The separate road system for Palestinians is often unpaved and in some cases is little more than a trail, rather than an actual road.


Meanwhile, a modern freeway system designed to link illegal Jewish settlements to each other and to Israel proper has been built for Jewish Israelis. Vehicles with Palestinian licenses are completely prohibited from traveling on approximately 105 kilometers of West Bank roads, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem. Palestinians can travel on the remaining 180 kilometers of Israeli-built roads in the West Bank only if they can obtain a special permit or if they travel in an ambulance. The Israeli road system crisscrosses the West Bank in a way that seems designed to prevent the formation of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state.


Within Israel itself, Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza are prohibited from driving on Israeli roads. Israeli citizens also cannot bring Palestinians into Israel through passages designated for Israelis only.


Sources:

“Separate and Unequal,” a report by Human Rights Watch.
An Israeli in Palestine, by Jeff Halper.
"Restriction of Movement," by B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the OccupiedTerritories. http://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_mo..._and_forbidden


I see! No need to explain further...blacks are savages and we should have listened to Reagan, Thatcher and the forces of fascism in Israel and elsewhere who argued that the west needed to continue supporting white rule in South Africa or Africa would fall to communism.....which, by the way has turned out exactly the opposite! And your Jewish relatives in South Africa have to live behind walls because South Africa got democracy but not economic equality after the end of Apartheid! You can say or imply whatever racist shit you want about Africans, but wherever there are sharp lines between haves and have-nots, there is going to be more violence, unrest, crime and every other marker on the misery index, no matter whether we're talking about South Africa, Brazil, Columbia, or some major American cities.
The separate "settlers" roads were built as a result of Oslo terror, then Intifada. Both stone-throwing and live fire forced isolation on the "settlements". There was no other way to save lives, therefore large sums were invested in bypass roads. Numerous attempts to allow common use of the roads resulted in further deaths. Terror forces "Apartheid". Maybe, You propose to cancel security measures in all America airports in the name of de-segregation?

Regarding South Africa, I agree, that South Africa apartheid is just social problem. Thus, why doesn't care (former communist leader) Zuma for his under-developed fellow citizens? Instead, he cries against Israeli Apartheid.

Last edited by houseknight; January 8th, 2018 at 11:34 PM.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 10:41 PM   #50
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How many are there? BTW, when you say Palestinians, they are predominantly, if not all, Muslims, right?
The percentage that are Christians has dropped over the years, largely because a Christian Palestinian has an easier time emigrating to the west than a Muslim does.
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