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Old January 8th, 2018, 10:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
The percentage that are Christians has dropped over the years, largely because a Christian Palestinian has an easier time emigrating to the west than a Muslim does.
Because that is not true.

https://cis.org/Immigrants-Middle-East

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The religious composition of Middle Eastern immigrants has changed dramatically over the past thirty years. In 1970, an estimated 15 percent (29,000) of immigrants from the region were Muslim; the rest were mostly Christians from Lebanon or Christian ethnic minorities such as Armenians fleeing predominately Muslim countries. By 2000, an estimated 73 percent (1.1 million) of all Middle Eastern immigrants were Muslim.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 11:27 PM   #52
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Who was the first Jew? It's not David and not Moses. Abraham was not a Jew because he came from Sumer in ancient Mesopotamia. Why do so many people hate the Jews when they know nothing about ancient history?
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Old January 9th, 2018, 12:22 AM   #53
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Who was the first Jew? It's not David and not Moses. Abraham was not a Jew because he came from Sumer in ancient Mesopotamia. Why do so many people hate the Jews when they know nothing about ancient history?
the first Jews were the 12 sons of Abraham the founders of the 12 tribes.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 04:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
How is it that one minute we're talking about International Law, another minute this topic goes to a Jewish v Muslim battle and now we're making it basically a religious issue?

I started out asking a simple question and this is the worst song and dance I've ever gotten on any topic.

Suppose that someone doesn't have a clue as to what your position is. You're explaining it to someone without a dog in the fight. I've heard Palestinians moaning that they were kicked out of their own country and had their homes taken. Okay, the Jews have a side. Can you make it simple and tell me, without being overly technical, what you think the issue boils down to?
Silly man - do learn to read with more attention! I am answering what others say. Some do; others are trumpers. As you know perfectly well, I very much dislike racist colonialism and regard the Zionists as Nazis, not Jews. When I hear total hypocrites ranting about religion, I point this out. Any further problems with comprehension?

Last edited by iolo; January 9th, 2018 at 05:16 AM.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 04:59 AM   #55
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the first Jews were the 12 sons of Abraham the founders of the 12 tribes.
Absolutely, positively 100 percent false
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Old January 9th, 2018, 05:48 AM   #56
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Silly man - do learn to read with more attention! I am answering what others say. Some do; others are trumpers. As you jknow perfectly well, I very much dislike racist colonialism and regard the Zionists as Nazis, not Jews. When I hear total hypocrites ranting about religion, I point this out. Any further problems with comprehension?
I've been trying to figure out what the fight has been about. When you talk about hypocrites and religion, it's the only part of the equation I do have some knowledge about, but the OP was trying to make a secular argument.

When you crack open an AKJV version of the Bible, the word "Jew" can mean someone by race; other times it means a person's religion; sometimes it means geography. You can still read the context and get at the truth.

In reality, what we've accepted does not stand up to a good biblical examination. For example:

One poster is trying to pass the Jews off as Israelites, but the very first time the Bible mentions the word "Jew," they are at war with Israel. They are not one and the same people.

Of the twelve tribes of Israel, only one tribe throughout the Bible was even remotely connected to the Jews. That would be the tribe of Judah. Furthermore, Judah and Israel went into captivity at different times, at different places, and had different destinies.

By the time you get to the New Testament you find Jesus having a discourse with the "Jews" including, but not limited to (Scribes and Pharisees.) They made the same claim then that they make today. Let us check it out:

"31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abrahamís seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abrahamís seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abrahamís children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
" John 8: 31 thru 44

In verse 32 you will note that some of these "Jews" (Scribes and Pharisees) said they were of Abraham's seed, but were "never in bondage to any man." There is no way they are Israelites because Israel was in bondage for several hundred years. Check out the entire book of Exodus for proof. So who could they be?

The answer lies in verses 38 and 39. Jesus tells them they do that which they "have done with their father." Then he makes it unequivocally clear that God is not their father. Jesus agrees with them that they are of Abraham's seed, but they "are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So, their father is the devil; he was a murderer from the beginning. So what is going on here? Well, who was a murderer from the beginning? Was it not Cain? You can check this for yourself. Cain is NOT listed as a son of Adam in the genealogy tables. In the beginning, can you show me where anyone was a murderer from the very beginning that predated Cain? NO.

So, you have Adam and Eve, Cain and Able. Cain slew Able and was banished to a land that obviously consisted of pre-Adamites. Cain entered into the land of Nod where he built a city. Later on Judah went there and took a wife of the Canaanites in Genesis 38 : 2 (which God expressly forbade him to do.) So, now these "Jews" claim lineage through Judah, but those people are not Israel as Jesus has confirmed.

Insofar as to who fights over the land in the Middle East, my interest is only academic. If you look in the Bible, you find things like Matt. 23: 37 thru 39:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, blessed is he that cometh in the Name of the Lord." As attorney turned preacher, Sheldon Emry, said:

"Here Christ was speaking to the city of Jerusalem that He was standing and looking at Jerusalem, the city that had killed Israel's prophets down through the centuries; and He said, Jerusalem, "your house is left unto you desolate." He could not have been speaking of prophetic Jerusalem, for that has a glorious future!"

Then this:

"I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with great jealousy Ö I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: My house shall be built in it Ö and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem." See Zechariah 1: 14 thru 17
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Old January 9th, 2018, 06:06 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
I've been trying to figure out what the fight has been about. When you talk about hypocrites and religion, it's the only part of the equation I do have some knowledge about, but the OP was trying to make a secular argument.

When you crack open an AKJV version of the Bible, the word "Jew" can mean someone by race; other times it means a person's religion; sometimes it means geography. You can still read the context and get at the truth.

In reality, what we've accepted does not stand up to a good biblical examination. For example:

One poster is trying to pass the Jews off as Israelites, but the very first time the Bible mentions the word "Jew," they are at war with Israel. They are not one and the same people.

Of the twelve tribes of Israel, only one tribe throughout the Bible was even remotely connected to the Jews. That would be the tribe of Judah. Furthermore, Judah and Israel went into captivity at different times, at different places, and had different destinies.

By the time you get to the New Testament you find Jesus having a discourse with the "Jews" including, but not limited to (Scribes and Pharisees.) They made the same claim then that they make today. Let us check it out:

"31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abrahamís seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abrahamís seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abrahamís children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
" John 8: 31 thru 44

In verse 32 you will note that some of these "Jews" (Scribes and Pharisees) said they were of Abraham's seed, but were "never in bondage to any man." There is no way they are Israelites because Israel was in bondage for several hundred years. Check out the entire book of Exodus for proof. So who could they be?

The answer lies in verses 38 and 39. Jesus tells them they do that which they "have done with their father." Then he makes it unequivocally clear that God is not their father. Jesus agrees with them that they are of Abraham's seed, but they "are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So, their father is the devil; he was a murderer from the beginning. So what is going on here? Well, who was a murderer from the beginning? Was it not Cain? You can check this for yourself. Cain is NOT listed as a son of Adam in the genealogy tables. In the beginning, can you show me where anyone was a murderer from the very beginning that predated Cain? NO.

So, you have Adam and Eve, Cain and Able. Cain slew Able and was banished to a land that obviously consisted of pre-Adamites. Cain entered into the land of Nod where he built a city. Later on Judah went there and took a wife of the Canaanites in Genesis 38 : 2 (which God expressly forbade him to do.) So, now these "Jews" claim lineage through Judah, but those people are not Israel as Jesus has confirmed.

Insofar as to who fights over the land in the Middle East, my interest is only academic. If you look in the Bible, you find things like Matt. 23: 37 thru 39:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, blessed is he that cometh in the Name of the Lord." As attorney turned preacher, Sheldon Emry, said:

"Here Christ was speaking to the city of Jerusalem that He was standing and looking at Jerusalem, the city that had killed Israel's prophets down through the centuries; and He said, Jerusalem, "your house is left unto you desolate." He could not have been speaking of prophetic Jerusalem, for that has a glorious future!"

Then this:

"I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with great jealousy Ö I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: My house shall be built in it Ö and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem." See Zechariah 1: 14 thru 17
MY position is very simple. As you say, a 'Jew' in current terminology can be defined either in terms of religion or genetic inheritance, and quite apart from disagreement with any claim to land based on alleged occupation long, long ago, I'd point out that Zionism was a reaction against the religion by people who, by and large, were descendants of Khazar and other converts, so that neither claim would give them ownership anyway, whereas, in my opinion, until very recently it was both impracticable and unknown to uproot whole agricultural populations, so that the Palestinians are descended largely from the original inhabitants, as seems to be the case in most of the Mediterranean and other European lands. If I have misunderstood your own position, I apologise: it sounds more interesting than I thought.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 06:40 AM   #58
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MY position is very simple. As you say, a 'Jew' in current terminology can be defined either in terms of religion or genetic inheritance, and quite apart from disagreement with any claim to land based on alleged occupation long, long ago, I'd point out that Zionism was a reaction against the religion by people who, by and large, were descendants of Khazar and other converts, so that neither claim would give them ownership anyway, whereas, in my opinion, until very recently it was both impracticable and unknown to uproot whole agricultural populations, so that the Palestinians are descended largely from the original inhabitants, as seems to be the case in most of the Mediterranean and other European lands. If I have misunderstood your own position, I apologise: it sounds more interesting than I thought.
We're probably close to being on the same page.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 09:45 AM   #59
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The Return Law was adopted shortly after Holocaust with the purpose to give Jews the shelter from persecutions and mass murder.
Oh, this makes sense! So what country did the Roma(Gypsies) get, since large Roma communities were also sent to the same concentration camps and large numbers went up in smoke in the gas ovens?

There were still large, unpopulated or underpopulated regions of the world after WWII when total world population was still less than 2.5 billion.
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Herzl came from the Western world. He was an assimilated Jew. He saw the necessity of a Jewish homeland as a practical idea. Therefore, to him, it did not necessarily have to be a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
https://www.jewishhistory.org/the-zionist-movement/

Before the turn of the 20th century, the British imperialists offered Theodore Herzl the colony of Uganda for a Jewish Zionist homeland, and Herzl appeared warm to the notion, but in other material I've read before, Herzl was holding out for Kenya..a more resource-rich land and drier climate. So, why did it have to be Palestine..an already populated region with a wide cultural mix of different religions and ethnicities? And that's why the Irgun and other secret Jewish terrorist groups were formed and started a campaign of terror to start ethnic cleansing!

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It was instrumental at time, providing Arab Jews a chance to flee persecutions. The Jews of Soviet Union were given such chance, too, however only part of them have immigrated to Israel. "The Shelter" itself turned out persecuted entity. Me personally realized this true, when Saddam Hussein battered us in 1991.
Sephardic Jews seem to have had 2nd class status in the Arab World for centuries, but until the rise of the Zionist Movement and the formation of the State of Israel, they were able to live in those countries. And that begs the question of what was England, France and America doing while their proxy pan-arabist and Islamic despots were running countries that were deflecting attention from their corruption and mismanagement onto Jewish and other minorities in their relatively new nations?
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Old January 9th, 2018, 10:41 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by iolo View Post
MY position is very simple. As you say, a 'Jew' in current terminology can be defined either in terms of religion or genetic inheritance, and quite apart from disagreement with any claim to land based on alleged occupation long, long ago, I'd point out that Zionism was a reaction against the religion by people who, by and large, were descendants of Khazar and other converts, so that neither claim would give them ownership anyway, whereas, in my opinion, until very recently it was both impracticable and unknown to uproot whole agricultural populations, so that the Palestinians are descended largely from the original inhabitants, as seems to be the case in most of the Mediterranean and other European lands. If I have misunderstood your own position, I apologise: it sounds more interesting than I thought.
And yet based on the results I saw in a Pew poll several years ago, American Jews thought of being Jewish more in terms of culture than religion or heritage.
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