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Old January 9th, 2018, 10:04 AM   #61
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Sephardic Jews seem to have had 2nd class status in the Arab World for centuries, but until the rise of the Zionist Movement and the formation of the State of Israel, they were able to live in those countries. And that begs the question of what was England, France and America doing while their proxy pan-arabist and Islamic despots were running countries that were deflecting attention from their corruption and mismanagement onto Jewish and other minorities in their relatively new nations?
According to Pan-Arabist Gamal Abdel Nasser, "to unite, Arabs are due one common enemy, and this enemy is Israel". Other Arab nationalists have adopted Nasser's formula. Saddam Hussein, Muammar Qaddafi, Asad the Dad, etc etc. Currently, islamists "stole" the formula (quote from King Abdallah of Jordan), therefore nationalists try reconciliation with the Jewish state. Whole Palestinian game is to interfere with Arab nationalist plans regarding Israel. Therefore HAMAS succeeded to "stole" influence from FATAH. They tied themselves with Iran islamists, playing antisemitic card which they consider "trump card". However, last riots in Iran discover, that benefit from anti-Semitism may come to an end.

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Old January 9th, 2018, 01:34 PM   #62
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Yes, Israel has not burned, destroyed or blocked access to Christian and Muslim Holy Sites.

Muslims on the other hand Burn Christian Churches, synagogues and executed worshipers
However we must remember that during the time of Moses, the Jews kicked ass and took the Promised Land in several very bloody battles, during which many thousands of the indigenous people were slaughtered.

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Old January 9th, 2018, 07:24 PM   #63
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Because that is not true.

https://cis.org/Immigrants-Middle-East
You're another one here who thinks writing up stupid bonehead points in extra large print is more convincing than just putting it in italics or bolded type!

The question asked was: how many Palestinians are Christians? And the area that became the West Bank of Jordan after the creation of Israel had about 17% Christians, but that has dropped over the years and is now an estimated 1 to 2.5% according to the CIA's "factbook" on the region. So, your ridiculously giant letters about how many Muslims are emigrating, actually bolsters the point that Christians are still leaving in larger numbers than Muslims! Formerly Christian cities like Bethlehem, now have so few Christians left that churches are empty and it's more difficult to put on Christmas displays to draw in western visitors that want to go through the barricades and checkpoints to get there.

According to the same CIA entry quoted in the Wikipedia entry on Palestine, 12 to 14% of West Bank residents are now Jewish...and that's as of 2011...now 7 years ago. No doubt those numbers are higher now with all the new settler colonies that have been built since then.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 07:50 PM   #64
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However we must remember that during the time of Moses, the Jews kicked ass and took the Promised Land in several very bloody battles, during which many thousands of the indigenous people were slaughtered.
It (The Conquest of Canaan) actually never happened! These are just mythological folklore accounts in old books, and there were no Israelites fleeing Egypt in the thousands...marching around the Sinai Desert for 40 years...and they didn't slaughter and commit genocide in what was called "the Land of Canaan." That's a disappointment to hardcore fundies like you, who think nothing of wanton killing and sex crimes...as long as it's against 'our enemies,' but more moderate Christians and Jews can pull up a book by two real Israeli archaeologists- Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman - The Bible Unearthed https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearth.../dp/0684869136 who make the simple point that the tools available to modern archaeologists now are so sophisticated that any mass movement of people 3000 to 4000 years ago would have left a massive trail of evidence for archaelogists to dig up, examine and catalogue!

When it comes to the Conquest of Canaan- same thing! The massive battles and slaughter would leave behind a lot of bones, weapons, miscellaneous garbage, because that's what happened when archaeologists examined the sites of REAL battles....like the first full scale battle in history between the Egyptians and the Assyrian Empire on the Plains of Megiddo about 3500 years ago!

When it comes to explaining the gap between the Old Testament accounts and the lack of physical evidence for the Flight From Egypt, bloody battles to seize Canaan, the Biblical patriarchs or even that a 12 tribe nation of Israel ever actually existed...Finkelstein points out that there is no evidence of written accounts prior to King Josiah of Judah in the 7th century b.c.. So, it's no surprise that Finkelstein and Silberman's lives have been in danger since writing their book, since they are essentially saying to modern Israelis: 'you're trying to renew a nation that never existed in the first place! Because there was only Judea/NOT 12 tribes of Israel before the Babylonian Captivity!

The last I heard of Prof Finkelstein, he had resigned his job at Tel Aviv University and was about to take up a position in the US because of the hostility and death threats aimed in his direction after they published their work 15 years ago. It's one more sign that even in so called secular Tel Aviv, Israel is turning more and more into a fundamentalist authoritarian state and leaving no room for secular Jews or just those like Finkelstein and Silberman, who demand that science be treated seriously and not used for flimsy attempts to try entrench religious fundamentalist narratives.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 08:17 PM   #65
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The separate "settlers" roads were built as a result of Oslo terror, then Intifada. Both stone-throwing and live fire forced isolation on the "settlements". There was no other way to save lives, therefore large sums were invested in bypass roads. Numerous attempts to allow common use of the roads resulted in further deaths. Terror forces "Apartheid". Maybe, You propose to cancel security measures in all America airports in the name of de-segregation?
No, I propose following UN Resolution 242: DON"T allow land seized during war to be given to the winning side and move their people in. This is the same basic principle as every other war until Israel - the international community would not recognize a conqueror's right to annex that territory permanently....then you don't have to worry about building roads that divide up communities in occupied territories...and we haven't even got to the issue of seizing greater and greater amounts of water in these relatively arrid lands where water is taken away from irrigating Palestinian olive groves and diverted to fill swimming pools in Jewish settlements.

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Regarding South Africa, I agree, that South Africa apartheid is just social problem. Thus, why doesn't care (former communist leader) Zuma for his under-developed fellow citizens? Instead, he cries against Israeli Apartheid.
If Zuma was ever a communist he's a Black Diamond now! The point is that the black majority of South Africa was promised more than voting rights and an end to checkpoints and having to produce permits and papers to move about; there were also promises to end poverty, provide electricity and municipal services to the black suburbs, end poverty, land reform...in other words, create an economically equal society to match political equality! And as we know, that never happened! Instead, some got rich/while most ended up poorer...even rural whites with small land holdings ended up poorer.

And, if you tolerate an unequal society, you also get a more violent society...which I hear is happening in Israel these days also, as more and more Jews are ending up homeless and are told they're only option other than living on the street is to move to one of the West Bank settlements and keep automatic weapons handy!

Annual report paints grim picture of poverty in Israel - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

https://kehilanews.com/2016/12/20/po...veloped-world/

Tens of thousands of Israeli Holocaust survivors are living in abject poverty - Telegraph
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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:13 PM   #66
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It (The Conquest of Canaan) actually never happened! These are just mythological folklore accounts in old books, and there were no Israelites fleeing Egypt in the thousands...marching around the Sinai Desert for 40 years...and they didn't slaughter and commit genocide in what was called "the Land of Canaan." That's a disappointment to hardcore fundies like you, who think nothing of wanton killing and sex crimes...as long as it's against 'our enemies,' but more moderate Christians and Jews can pull up a book by two real Israeli archaeologists- Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman - The Bible Unearthed https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearth.../dp/0684869136 who make the simple point that the tools available to modern archaeologists now are so sophisticated that any mass movement of people 3000 to 4000 years ago would have left a massive trail of evidence for archaelogists to dig up, examine and catalogue!

When it comes to the Conquest of Canaan- same thing! The massive battles and slaughter would leave behind a lot of bones, weapons, miscellaneous garbage, because that's what happened when archaeologists examined the sites of REAL battles....like the first full scale battle in history between the Egyptians and the Assyrian Empire on the Plains of Megiddo about 3500 years ago!

When it comes to explaining the gap between the Old Testament accounts and the lack of physical evidence for the Flight From Egypt, bloody battles to seize Canaan, the Biblical patriarchs or even that a 12 tribe nation of Israel ever actually existed...Finkelstein points out that there is no evidence of written accounts prior to King Josiah of Judah in the 7th century b.c.. So, it's no surprise that Finkelstein and Silberman's lives have been in danger since writing their book, since they are essentially saying to modern Israelis: 'you're trying to renew a nation that never existed in the first place! Because there was only Judea/NOT 12 tribes of Israel before the Babylonian Captivity!

The last I heard of Prof Finkelstein, he had resigned his job at Tel Aviv University and was about to take up a position in the US because of the hostility and death threats aimed in his direction after they published their work 15 years ago. It's one more sign that even in so called secular Tel Aviv, Israel is turning more and more into a fundamentalist authoritarian state and leaving no room for secular Jews or just those like Finkelstein and Silberman, who demand that science be treated seriously and not used for flimsy attempts to try entrench religious fundamentalist narratives.
Prof. Israel Finkelstein is indeed experienced archaeologist, but his theoretical «revelations» obviously need correction. He bring 3 controversial hypotheses on the basis of lack of available data, but haven’t bring data which may confirm his assumptions.

The first hypothesis states, that there was no influx of Israel clans of Egyptian origin, namely, all Israel tribes emerged «in situ». This hypothesis was debunked shortly after Finkelstein published his «revelation» book. Archaeological data from Mount Grizim near Shechem reveal just Egyptian artifacts in the place of supposed Joshua bin Nun alliance with God. In addition, Me personally have analyzed the names of clans of Menashe, Asher and other Israel tribes, revealing, that many of these clans have Edomite parallels. Obviously, at least part Israel tribes came from abroad, not inevitably from Egypt.

Regarding Canaan battles, the scale of these was obviously exaggerated by priests who wrote the scripture 500 years or more after settling Israelis in Canaan. This fact was well known before Finkelstein even started his archaeology studies.The fact of nomadic tribes settling, which lasted few centuries, is confirmed by revealed scattered «open» settlements in the open space between fortified Canaanite towns. The ancient Israel nation was formed due to slow assimilation process, both Canaanites and nomadic Israelis contributed to the new nation. The process is clearly seen from Judges book.

Finkelstein’s third assumption is, that King David and his son Solomon have never dominated over Israel tribes, they were simply kings of small Judah tribe. Actually, Finkelstein is «pro-Israel» in the sense that Judea king Yosia ostensibly «stole» Ancient Israel glory. The hypothesis has no positive evidence, it’s pure assumption.

But the worst problem with Finkelstein is that he established a sort of dictatorship over his branch of science, neglecting all revelations which may disprove his own hypotheses.

I’m satisfied with Prof Finkelstein resignation. We need objective researchers, not dictators.

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Old January 13th, 2018, 11:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
It (The Conquest of Canaan) actually never happened! These are just mythological folklore accounts in old books, and there were no Israelites fleeing Egypt in the thousands...marching around the Sinai Desert for 40 years...and they didn't slaughter and commit genocide in what was called "the Land of Canaan." That's a disappointment to hardcore fundies like you, who think nothing of wanton killing and sex crimes...as long as it's against 'our enemies,' but more moderate Christians and Jews can pull up a book by two real Israeli archaeologists- Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman - The Bible Unearthed https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearth.../dp/0684869136 who make the simple point that the tools available to modern archaeologists now are so sophisticated that any mass movement of people 3000 to 4000 years ago would have left a massive trail of evidence for archaelogists to dig up, examine and catalogue!

When it comes to the Conquest of Canaan- same thing! The massive battles and slaughter would leave behind a lot of bones, weapons, miscellaneous garbage, because that's what happened when archaeologists examined the sites of REAL battles....like the first full scale battle in history between the Egyptians and the Assyrian Empire on the Plains of Megiddo about 3500 years ago!

When it comes to explaining the gap between the Old Testament accounts and the lack of physical evidence for the Flight From Egypt, bloody battles to seize Canaan, the Biblical patriarchs or even that a 12 tribe nation of Israel ever actually existed...Finkelstein points out that there is no evidence of written accounts prior to King Josiah of Judah in the 7th century b.c.. So, it's no surprise that Finkelstein and Silberman's lives have been in danger since writing their book, since they are essentially saying to modern Israelis: 'you're trying to renew a nation that never existed in the first place! Because there was only Judea/NOT 12 tribes of Israel before the Babylonian Captivity!

The last I heard of Prof Finkelstein, he had resigned his job at Tel Aviv University and was about to take up a position in the US because of the hostility and death threats aimed in his direction after they published their work 15 years ago. It's one more sign that even in so called secular Tel Aviv, Israel is turning more and more into a fundamentalist authoritarian state and leaving no room for secular Jews or just those like Finkelstein and Silberman, who demand that science be treated seriously and not used for flimsy attempts to try entrench religious fundamentalist narratives.
Very few if any know ancient history on this board after reading so many undereducated posts on this thread in particular. The Egyptians fought the Hittites and not the Assyrians. Egypt had already collapsed before the Assyrian Empire. Rome was a backwater back then so Rome did not fight them either. Assyrians were cruel beyond cruelty. When they caught an opposing King they skinned him alive and put him in a suspended cage above the main gate under the blazing sun where he cried for water but no water was given. However, the populace did throw stones at him.

edit: Read Ancient Evenings by Norman Mailer. It is a long novel set circa 1000 BC in ancient Egypt during their second collapse. Their first collapse occurred circa 2000 BC by the Sea Peoples whoever they were. Cleopatra was Greek and not Egyptian.

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Old January 14th, 2018, 04:14 AM   #68
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No, I propose following UN Resolution 242: DON"T allow land seized during war to be given to the winning side and move their people in. This is the same basic principle as every other war until Israel - the international community would not recognize a conqueror's right to annex that territory permanently....then you don't have to worry about building roads that divide up communities in occupied territories...and we haven't even got to the issue of seizing greater and greater amounts of water in these relatively arrid lands where water is taken away from irrigating Palestinian olive groves and diverted to fill swimming pools in Jewish settlements.


If Zuma was ever a communist he's a Black Diamond now! The point is that the black majority of South Africa was promised more than voting rights and an end to checkpoints and having to produce permits and papers to move about; there were also promises to end poverty, provide electricity and municipal services to the black suburbs, end poverty, land reform...in other words, create an economically equal society to match political equality! And as we know, that never happened! Instead, some got rich/while most ended up poorer...even rural whites with small land holdings ended up poorer.

And, if you tolerate an unequal society, you also get a more violent society...which I hear is happening in Israel these days also, as more and more Jews are ending up homeless and are told they're only option other than living on the street is to move to one of the West Bank settlements and keep automatic weapons handy!

Annual report paints grim picture of poverty in Israel - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

https://kehilanews.com/2016/12/20/po...veloped-world/

Tens of thousands of Israeli Holocaust survivors are living in abject poverty - Telegraph
Resolution 242 doesn't require the return to 1949 lines! Actually, the UNGA resolution from November 2017 neglects this 242 UNSC resolution and Partition resolution. And human rights of the Jews who settled in Palestine/Judea&Samaria. If the Palestinians are eager to return to 1949 lines, they should grant the Jews living there Palestinian citizenship. The Palestinians reject such solution and any other just and natural solution, including land swaps etc. Because they seek the "solution" of HAMAS and Iran, that is annihilation of Israel and genocide of the Jews. The "settlements" and border are simply pretext to continue war against the Jews up to complete genocide.
Trump has realized, that the peace in the Middle East is achievable only due to pressure on Palestinians and Iran.

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Old January 14th, 2018, 04:55 AM   #69
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Here's a question (actually "questions"):

Suppose somewhere in Anytown USA someone owns a plot of land, and they have a couple children (Alfred and Brian). This parent sells the plot of land to Alfred, meaning Brian has nothing to do with ownership of this plot of land at all, at this point on forward. Let's suppose that 10 generations later many of Alfred's descendants still own and live on this plot of land (and let's say it's a very large plot of land too). Does it make any sense at all for some of Brian's descendants from 10 generations later (in other words same time frame as Alfred's 10 generations later descendants) to come along and just take all it from these descendants of Alfred who currently own and live on this plot by saying they have a "right of return" simply because they had an ancestor who once owned it? Or, what if the parent of Alfred and Brian, instead of selling it to either child, sells it to Charlie, someone none of them are related to, and Charlie either sells it to someone he's not related to or sells it to his children and it's Charlie's descendants now living on that plot of land. Does it make any sense at all for either of Alfred or Brian's descendants from 10 generations later to come along and claim right of return?

I'm trying to figure out how this "right of return" stuff in this former Ottoman Empire Israel/Palestine region makes any sense at all, because right now it doesn't make any sense to me at all. To me it's just a bunch of religious folks with the belief from their religious beliefs that it's ok to be aggressors.
Thanks from discollector

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Old January 14th, 2018, 10:26 AM   #70
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Here's a question (actually "questions"):

Suppose somewhere in Anytown USA someone owns a plot of land, and they have a couple children (Alfred and Brian). This parent sells the plot of land to Alfred, meaning Brian has nothing to do with ownership of this plot of land at all, at this point on forward. Let's suppose that 10 generations later many of Alfred's descendants still own and live on this plot of land (and let's say it's a very large plot of land too). Does it make any sense at all for some of Brian's descendants from 10 generations later (in other words same time frame as Alfred's 10 generations later descendants) to come along and just take all it from these descendants of Alfred who currently own and live on this plot by saying they have a "right of return" simply because they had an ancestor who once owned it? Or, what if the parent of Alfred and Brian, instead of selling it to either child, sells it to Charlie, someone none of them are related to, and Charlie either sells it to someone he's not related to or sells it to his children and it's Charlie's descendants now living on that plot of land. Does it make any sense at all for either of Alfred or Brian's descendants from 10 generations later to come along and claim right of return?

I'm trying to figure out how this "right of return" stuff in this former Ottoman Empire Israel/Palestine region makes any sense at all, because right now it doesn't make any sense to me at all. To me it's just a bunch of religious folks with the belief from their religious beliefs that it's ok to be aggressors.
I've already indicated, that the mentioned "plot of land" wasn't sold but was taken by force, while original inhabitants were not only expelled, but in addition prevented from return by force. I've indicated, that some part of those original inhabitants resisted all expulsions, while another part have returned long ago, despite of physical murder and fiscal press. Yet the third part of these people have purchased some part of "plot" paying high price, before they were annihilated en masses or fled their countries, losing their property. One more part of these people were expelled from their homes and fled to their original homeland.

After all the "conquests" these returners seized no more than 17% of their original homeland.

In the past, these returners were religious people, but practical return have performed in the course of last 140 years just secular ones.
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