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Old February 5th, 2018, 02:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Its seems to me that the nazis have became a trump card in the socialist propaganda machine. Look, look at all of the jews that hitler killed (the number grows like the size of the fish your uncle cought each time the story is told) they wave in the air distracting from the tens of millions more that were slaughtered by communist regimes.

The whole thing is sickening IMO
From 1945 on, the Holocaust statistics are based on the national demography statistics of all countries, once occupied by the Nazis. Simply, we take prewar statistics and subtract postwar statistics. From that, we subtract the numbers of refugees, who fled to the third countries. The result is 6.000.000, which is "sacred".
I believe this 6.000.000 is not 100% accurate, because of few unaccounted factors. For example, the prewar statistics consider "non-Jews" a significant part of the Jews, who had changed their ethnicity record because of fear of persecution or murder.
Antisemitic persecutions and pogroms were not just Hitler's invention. Some 25 years before Hitler's Holocaust, there happened less known WWI Holocaust, when about 1.500.000 Jews were murdered. One of these victims was my Grandfather, who was murdered by Russian soldier when he walked with My mother in the street. Jews did have reasons to hide their ethnicity.
Nazis have included these crypto-Jews in their statistics, prepared by Dieter Wisliceny before the Holocaust was launched. The sign "Judenfrei" was placed after the number of victims was close to Wisliceny numbers. That is, the crypto-Jews were murdered along with "open" Jews.
The number of Crypto-Jews is estimated as 10% of Jews populations, it varies in accordance with the degree of prewar antisemitism by country. Me personally was familiar with some Crypto-Jews, one of them was my High school mate, another was my work colleague etc.
In another hand, some Crypto-Jews survived Holocaust and keep their Crypto-Jewish status, one of these was My Mother's friend.
So, how justified is ban on the Holocaust denial? According to My personal experience, the Holocaust denial is one of main expressions of the antisemitism, look Iran Holocaust denial. It is justified especially in the countries, where main population took part in the Holocaust, that is most countries of Europe.
The USA people are less informed about Holocaust, and may have questions. However, ignorance cannot justify immorality. Most of people, denying the Holocaust, do it out of antisemitic emotions. Holocaust denial is actually antisemitic hate speech, and like any other antisemitic hate speech, Holocaust denial must be punished. I believe, the USA lawmakers have to re-consider their approach to the Holocaust denial.

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Old February 5th, 2018, 04:39 AM   #12
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~snip~

Holocaust denial is actually antisemitic hate speech, and like any other antisemitic hate speech, Holocaust denial must be punished. I believe, the USA lawmakers have to re-consider their approach to the Holocaust denial.
Have you read our Constitution? If so, please show me which part you believe empowers the federal government to silence political debate.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:34 AM   #13
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I've known quite a few soldiers who were at the Liberation of the camps, and one or two who were on the marches of mostly-dying prisoners. Nobody can ever know how many were murdered, how many died of disease or starvation, or what the details of the population were before or after the Capitalist Revival under Hitler. What we do know is that plenty of Zionists got out in plenty of time and that we shockingly let down all our comrades, Jewish and otherwise, in the death camps. Blocking off discussion of what actually happened is to deny discussion of what humanity is capable off, good as well as bad.
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Old February 6th, 2018, 07:34 AM   #14
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Have you read our Constitution? If so, please show me which part you believe empowers the federal government to silence political debate.
Holocaust denial isn't "political debate" at all. It's quite purposed humiliation of all Jews.
The Holocaust was sentenced by Nuremberg tribunal. The number of 6.000.000 was named as witness to Tribunal, it was prepared after thorough research. "Political debate", which accuses Nuremberg law court and its witnesses must pass new law court. I believe, that Anti-Defamation league is entitled to initiate legal action against Holocaust deniers.

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Old February 6th, 2018, 07:44 AM   #15
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“We consider any denial of the Holocaust or minimizing of its effect a crime [that] distort[s] history and an insult to the dignity of those innocent souls who have perished,” a prominent Saudi cleric stated.

By: The Tower and United with Israel Staff

In a historic move, the leader of the Muslim World League, a group based in Saudi Arabia, has condemned Holocaust denial as a “crime [that] distort[s] history and an insult to the dignity of those innocent souls who have perished.”

In a letter sent to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum last week, Dr. Muhammad bin abdel-Kareem Al-Issa, the secretary general of the Muslim World League, wrote that “history is indeed impartial no matter how hard forgers tried to tamper with or manipulate it.”

Al-Issa wrote the message, sent to museum director Sara Bloomfield, five days before International Holocaust Remembrance Day was marked on January 27.


My note: A prominent Saudi cleric blames Holocaust Deniers. To the contrary, highly politicized Iranian ayatollahs made Holocaust denial the core of their internal and external propaganda. Some Muslim clerics realize, that positioning themselves on the immoral side of the Humankind may undermine Islam. No matter, what did Muhammad. At the bottom line, people do have their own conscience.

Let us be very clear about this. Muhammad said the people of the book are to be protected. The people of the book are Jews and Christians.

Let us be clear, Islam is not a single religion but is divided as Christians and Catholics and the Amish and Morons are divided. Christians persecuted Jews and especially Christians and Catholics have killed each other as Sunni and Shia have killed each other.

Historically Muslims have rescued Jews

Quote:
Besa: A Code of Honor. Muslim Albanians Who Rescued Jews During ...
Besa: A Code of Honor. Muslim Albanians Who Rescued Jews During the Holocaust | Yad Vashem
"There is no trace of any discrimination against Jews in Albania, because Albania happens to be one of the rare lands in Europe today where religious prejudice and hate do not exist, even though Albanians themselves are divided into three faiths." Herman Bernstein, the United States Ambassador to Albania, 1934.
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Muslim rescue efforts during the Holocaust - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim..._the_Holocaust
A number of Arabs participated in efforts to help save Jewish residents of Arab lands from the Holocaust while fascist regimes controlled the territory. From June 1940 through May 1943, Axis powers, namely Germany and Italy, controlled large portions of North Africa. Approximately 1 percent of the Jewish residents, about ...
Missing: inquitions
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Old February 6th, 2018, 07:58 AM   #16
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I suppose many Muslims care little for European history as almost all 'Christians' do for what they did to the Middle East.

This is not correct. Trading has been essential to the Arabs and they were an essential link between the east and west. We have so much to be thankful for that came to us through Arabs and essentially a Muslim love of knowledge. We are especially indebted to them for getting us out of the dark ages. One of the greatest tragedies in the world is the conflict for power that has perverted both Islam and Christianity. The tragedy for Islam is the quest for empire that includes pitting Sunni against Shia, and the struggle for power. What happened to Islam is like what is so for the US today, the quest for power pulled both away from their codes of honor and the pursuit of knowledge.

The US is now the Military Industrial Complex it defended itself against, and it is going down the toilet, just as Islam did when it went into a power struggle for empire. But there was a time when both Muslims and the US were great because of their codes of honor and pursuit of knowledge. The educated among them have known our history far better than we know theirs.
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Old February 6th, 2018, 08:02 AM   #17
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I've known quite a few soldiers who were at the Liberation of the camps, and one or two who were on the marches of mostly-dying prisoners. Nobody can ever know how many were murdered, how many died of disease or starvation, or what the details of the population were before or after the Capitalist Revival under Hitler. What we do know is that plenty of Zionists got out in plenty of time and that we shockingly let down all our comrades, Jewish and otherwise, in the death camps. Blocking off discussion of what actually happened is to deny discussion of what humanity is capable off, good as well as bad.
Our refusal to accept Jewish refugees is shameful and we are making that mistake again. We need to lift the conscience of the US.

My father served as a medic in WWII and dealt with the concentration camps. I do not doubt the stories of horror.
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Old February 6th, 2018, 08:09 AM   #18
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Holocaust denial isn't "political debate" at all. It's quite purposed humiliation of all Jews.
The Holocaust was sentenced by Nuremberg tribunal. The number of 6.000.000 was named as witness to Tribunal, it was prepared after thorough research. "Political debate", which accuses Nuremberg law court and its witnesses must pass new law court. I believe, that Anti-Defamation league is entitled to initiate legal action against Holocaust deniers.
No, it really is about politics and power. Same as the divide of Sunni and Shia became a power struggle. Same as Billy Graham telling us God wants our young men and women to serve in Iraq was about a struggle for power, supported by the Christian right who thought the invasion of Iraq was a holy war and that Bush was doing the will of God. People who sit in the seats of power, since the beginning of civilizations have expanded their power by using religion or nationalism to get people to fight their wars.
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Old February 6th, 2018, 08:12 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by houseknight View Post
Holocaust denial isn't "political debate" at all. It's quite purposed humiliation of all Jews.
The Holocaust was sentenced by Nuremberg tribunal. The number of 6.000.000 was named as witness to Tribunal, it was prepared after thorough research. "Political debate", which accuses Nuremberg law court and its witnesses must pass new law court. I believe, that Anti-Defamation league is entitled to initiate legal action against Holocaust deniers.
I understand what you believe, but you didn't address my request.

Reforming the request: If you have read the US Constitution, please show me which part you believe empowers the federal government to silence its citizens, to criminalize speech, for any reason.

Please try again.
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Old February 7th, 2018, 05:14 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by houseknight View Post
Holocaust denial isn't "political debate" at all. It's quite purposed humiliation of all Jews.
The Holocaust was sentenced by Nuremberg tribunal. The number of 6.000.000 was named as witness to Tribunal, it was prepared after thorough research. "Political debate", which accuses Nuremberg law court and its witnesses must pass new law court. I believe, that Anti-Defamation league is entitled to initiate legal action against Holocaust deniers.
Really? Is there anything else that you people should believe or be punished for not believing?
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