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Old June 13th, 2018, 01:15 AM   #101
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Actually, the UN agreed to not use UN security forces to enforce the recommendation of the creation of Israel. Instead they left it up to the inhabitants, thus the Jewish people then took it upon themselves to do so. So you can say the UN did not create Israel, but they did recommend it then they chose to not use any UN force to deal with it. Jews 1 Arabs 0. Furthermore the UN officially recognized the State of Israel on May 14, 1948. It is a bit facetious to attempt to wash the UN hands of the creation of Israel, when you actually understand and comprehend everything that happened.

...and the particular act by the UN on May 14, 1948 in which it allegedly "officially recognized" the State of Israel was...?

Indeed, Israel's initial application made in May 1948 to be a member of the UN was not approved by the UN Security Council. And it wasn't until March 1949 when a later application-a third Israeli attempt I believe-was approved by the UN Security Council and May 1949 when the UN General Assembly voted to approve Israel's membership in the UN.

So, it really isn't clear what you mean when you claim that "the UN officially recognized the State of Israel on May 14, 1948."


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Old June 13th, 2018, 03:13 AM   #102
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Israel is a parasite on the USA. Israel refuses to abide by their treaty obligations and have acted as enemies of the USA multiple times in the past (USS Liberty, stealing nuclear technology, shielding criminals and refusing to repatriate them to the USA, etc). I believe the USA should drop ALL aid to Israel, all UN support for Israel, and even recognition of Israel as a nation unless it abides by it's treaty obligations.
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Old June 13th, 2018, 08:08 AM   #103
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Less than 1% of the US budget goes to foreign aid. Food for thought.

Democracy for everyone? What does that even mean? Are you saying that Israel should be forced to allow people who are not citizens of Israel the right to affect change on that nation? Do the citizens of Israel not get an opportunity to vote? Your statement is absurd
Palestinians have no legitimate say in what happens and keep in mind these are the people who have been there for centuries. What makes them separate from the voting population?

Quote:
The demographic features of Israel are monitored by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. The State of Israel has a population of approximately 8,855,000 inhabitants as of first half-2018.[3] Some 74.5% percent are Jews of all backgrounds (about 6,556,000 individuals), 20.9% are Arab of any religion other than Jewish (about 1,837,000 individuals), while the remaining 4.6% (about 400,000 individuals) are defined as "others" including persons of Jewish ancestry deemed non-Jewish by religious law and persons of non-Jewish ancestry who are family members of Jewish immigrants (neither of which are registered at the Ministry of Interior as Jews), Christian non-Arabs, Muslim non-Arabs, and all other residents who have neither an ethnic nor religious classification.
The best way to understand the Palestinian political position in the region of the world where they have lived for centuries is to look at the Black persons' political power, before 1960 in the US. When we finally did get a president of color in office, the political resistance to everything he attempted to do was shy high, and we now have a president destroying everything Obama achieved to the White population's delight. And our democracy is much stronger than democracy in Israel because Israel is about Zionism, not democracy. Political change in the US was possible because we have always educated for and lived with democratic ideals. That is not true of Zionism. After a war to defend our democracy there was a huge push to end segregation in the US and finally, the push to make and use laws to protect the rights of people of color and women, people of color and women gained political power, but this has not happened for non-Jews in Isreal and it can not happen there because that is not what Zionism is about.

Last edited by Athena; June 13th, 2018 at 08:12 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2018, 09:59 AM   #104
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Starting from Peel commission partition plan (1937), the 2-state solution means Greater Palestine, which includes Jordan, West Bank and Gaza, and Israel, which covers some 17% of Greater Palestine territory. With Hamas of Jordan, approaching dominant position in Jordan, such solution may turn more than real, without any peace agreement. Generally, Islamic tradition neglects agreements with non-Muslims, so any solution must be "fait accompli".
All this blather says nothing about what's important: Israel's illegal seizures of water supplies and ethnically cleansing territories to make more room for foreign Jews to move in! Moving civilian populations into territories acquired from war is and always has been illegal by any standards of international law!
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Old June 13th, 2018, 10:14 AM   #105
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Israel is a parasite on the USA. Israel refuses to abide by their treaty obligations and have acted as enemies of the USA multiple times in the past (USS Liberty, stealing nuclear technology, shielding criminals and refusing to repatriate them to the USA, etc). I believe the USA should drop ALL aid to Israel, all UN support for Israel, and even recognition of Israel as a nation unless it abides by it's treaty obligations.
The most dangerous thing that Israel is doing today is acting as the source for nuclear technology towards nations like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Is this the reason why the Saudi Kingdom is willing to risk the wrath of the Arab and Muslim World to maintain a chummy relationship with Israel:
https://yournewswire.com/israel-is-h...clear-weapons/

It's not even a subject for dispute today after classified leaks that Israel piloted Apartheid South Africa's nuclear development program back in the 70's and 80's...which had to be packed up and removed when white rule ended.

It's been disputed whether or not Israeli assistance to the Pakistani nuclear program was approved or the product of a rogue source workiing for money, but the final analysis is that A.Q. Khan's nuclear program was able to produce bomb-ready warheads much faster than it would have been from a program that started from the ground up and had to do all its own work!

Yet, what does America...or any other western leader say about the biggest rogue nuclear nation in the world? Nothing! And compare that to all the blather about the risks of North Korea developing nukes for their own protection (just in time apparently) or the claimed risks of Iran developing nukes! Why are rogue nukes okay in some hands but not others? And then ask why are so many comfortable with extinction-level nuclear weapons existing anywhere in the world at all?
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Old June 13th, 2018, 10:31 AM   #106
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Where did you get that notion? Muslims repeatedly saved Jews from the Christians who were persecuting them.



The problem is Zionism, not a historical conflict between Jews and Muslims.
Correct, local and Zionist Jews fought Crusaders together with Muslims. But in the course of last few centuries, local Muslims, supported by Ottoman authority, cleansed Palestine from the remainders of the Jews. Turkish sultans (Caliphs) prevented Zionism attempts. There are numerous well known examples of anti-Zionist policy of local rulers, the Caliph and local Muslim population.
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Old June 13th, 2018, 11:36 AM   #107
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...and the particular act by the UN on May 14, 1948 in which it allegedly "officially recognized" the State of Israel was...?

Indeed, Israel's initial application made in May 1948 to be a member of the UN was not approved by the UN Security Council. And it wasn't until March 1949 when a later application-a third Israeli attempt I believe-was approved by the UN Security Council and May 1949 when the UN General Assembly voted to approve Israel's membership in the UN.

So, it really isn't clear what you mean when you claim that "the UN officially recognized the State of Israel on May 14, 1948."


I think you fail to realize that being officially recognized and becoming a member is not the same thing. The UN officially recognized the diplomatic status of Israel on the date I gave. So, my claim, which is factual history, stands.
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Old June 15th, 2018, 07:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by houseknight View Post
Correct, local and Zionist Jews fought Crusaders together with Muslims. But in the course of last few centuries, local Muslims, supported by Ottoman authority, cleansed Palestine from the remainders of the Jews. Turkish sultans (Caliphs) prevented Zionism attempts. There are numerous well known examples of anti-Zionist policy of local rulers, the Caliph and local Muslim population.
There were no Zionist Jews at the time of the Crusades.

Quote:
Zi·on·ism
ˈzīəˌnizəm/Submit
noun
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
Translations, word origin, and more definitions
However, I am not sure why this is separated from Zionism unless the separation is the former immigration lacked political organization and left political concerns to the Turks. Like there would be no conflict today if it were not for the Jews becoming secular and taking political control of the region and pushing the Palestinians out. It is the Jews who have chosen to not to live in peace with others.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...Jews_in_Turkey

The number of native Jews was soon bolstered by small groups of Ashkenazi Jews that immigrated to the Ottoman Empire between 1421 and 1453.[13] Among these new Ashkenazi immigrants was Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati, a German-born Jew of French descent[15] (Hebrew: צרפתי – Sarfati, meaning: "French"), who became the Chief Rabbi of Edirne and wrote a letter inviting the European Jewry to settle in the Ottoman Empire, in which he stated that: "Turkey is a land wherein nothing is lacking" and asking: "Is it not better for you to live under Muslims than under Christians?"[15][16]
The following is a shame on Christians, but what is happening today is a shame on Jews and then back on the Christians who feel guilty for what they, the Christians did to Jews.

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The greatest influx of Jews into Asia Minor and the Ottoman Empire, occurred during the reign of Mehmed the Conquerors's successor, Beyazid II (1481–1512), after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Portugal, South Italy and Sicily. The Sultan issued a formal invitation to Jews expelled from Spain and Portugal and they started arriving in the empire in great numbers.
I am not aware of conflict between Jews and the Ottman Empire. How did the Ottoman Empire support the Arabs and Muslims? Why would the Ottoman Empire change their loyalties? That is the real question because it don't think the point of conflict is religion but money and control of territory.

The Jew and Muslim history needs to be in this discussion.

Quote:
History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...er_Muslim_rule
Jewish communities have existed across the Middle East and North Africa since Antiquity. ... During waves of persecution in Medieval Europe, many Jews found refuge in Muslim lands. .... :58 He posits that Muslims considered Jews less theologically threatening than Christians did, suggesting that the ..... Print/export.
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Last edited by Athena; June 15th, 2018 at 07:10 AM.
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Old June 15th, 2018, 07:36 AM   #109
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Why the huge shift in the Jewish population and escalating conflict? The following link is very important to discussing the issues of this thread. A side issue running parallel to the conflict caused by Zionism is the importance of democracy in resolving human conflicts. Those who put religion first, escalate conflict and that is what makes Zionism to dangerous to the world. Those who put democracy first are the peacemakers, not the religious folks.

We really need to increase awareness of the religious problem, and awareness of democracy doing more for humanity than religion. We need to change the false Christian, Jewish, and Muslim belief that it is their religion that makes life good. And Israel is not a democracy as the democracy in the US. It if were, there would not the present conflict based on religion.

Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish...slim_countries
The reasons for the exodus included push factors, such as persecution, antisemitism, political instability,[15] poverty[15] and expulsion, together with pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionist yearnings or find a better economic status and a secure home in Europe or the Americas. The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[16] When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian exodus generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left as refugees, while those who do not, emphasize the pull factors and consider them willing immigrants.[17]
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Old June 15th, 2018, 08:31 AM   #110
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I think you fail to realize that being officially recognized and becoming a member is not the same thing. The UN officially recognized the diplomatic status of Israel on the date I gave. So, my claim, which is factual history, stands.
Well then, if the UN allegedly "officially" recognized the diplomatic status of Israel on the date you gave, then you should have no problem at all pointing to the UN document or documents which would contain proof of such an alleged "fact."

And that document or those documents would be found here.:

Documents | United Nations

But, I certainly won't hold my breath waiting for that proof which, as far as I can tell from my own research, doesn't exist.

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