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Old May 21st, 2018, 09:49 AM   #31
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A land for, and populated by Jews is a problem? Without Zionism, Israel would not exist. Giving back land that was historically Jewish, is speaking in favor of war? How so?
I hope you watch the second video about the double-dealing Britain did that created the Israel problem that involves all Arab and Persian countries and the US.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 09:56 AM   #32
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I hope you watch the second video about the double-dealing Britain did that created the Israel problem that involves all Arab and Persian countries and the US.
England created the other side of the problem also when they backstabbed Hussein...the sheik of Mecca and Medina (the guy played by Omar Sharif in Lawrence of Arabia) and gave leftover guns and cannons post-WWI to the House of Saud for a takeover of the Arabian Peninsula. They knew about Ibn Saud's partnership with Wahabbi clerics and didn't care, nor did they worry about Islamic extremism when they set up the Muslim Brotherhood movement to rise in Egypt and threaten their monarchy.

Seems like Britain created a lot of 'problems' until it was time for them to give up the Empire and hand over the keys to the USA.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 07:12 AM   #33
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And the lectures I have been listening to explain Frances part in starting the Zionist movement. France wanted to give Germany wrong information about a weapon it had developed, so they leaked the information, and then made a Jew the fall guy, claiming he had given the information to Germany, so the Germans would not know they received false information. There were trials and huge media exposure of this traitor, and the innocent Jew was put in the worst prison for many years. Because this Jew came from one of the elite families, the work to prove his innocence continued until he was proven innocent. This is kind of like the last straw that broke the camel's back. Given the history of how badly Europe had treated Jews and this last one event, and the wealth of some elite Jews, the Zionist movement was begun. Now you have the Rothchild and the bank loan that lead to promising Rothchild the region the Zionist wanted.

I wish everyone were familiar with the history and understood how religion has been used to mobilize wars. This includes pitting Muslims against each other as well as Christians making war on Muslims. And today, Evangelist Christians are among the worst.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:43 AM   #34
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And the lectures I have been listening to explain Frances part in starting the Zionist movement. France wanted to give Germany wrong information about a weapon it had developed, so they leaked the information, and then made a Jew the fall guy, claiming he had given the information to Germany, so the Germans would not know they received false information. There were trials and huge media exposure of this traitor, and the innocent Jew was put in the worst prison for many years. Because this Jew came from one of the elite families, the work to prove his innocence continued until he was proven innocent. This is kind of like the last straw that broke the camel's back. Given the history of how badly Europe had treated Jews and this last one event, and the wealth of some elite Jews, the Zionist movement was begun. Now you have the Rothchild and the bank loan that lead to promising Rothchild the region the Zionist wanted.
Yes, France played their share in plotting the course of history for the mutual benefit of France and England....that seems to be why England was so agreeable regarding the terms of divying up of the Arab World after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. France walked off with Lebanon and Syria...at the time the richest Arab territories of the Empire prior to the discovery of the vast oil reserves in the south.
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I wish everyone were familiar with the history and understood how religion has been used to mobilize wars. This includes pitting Muslims against each other as well as Christians making war on Muslims. And today, Evangelist Christians are among the worst.
Ain't it the truth! It must have something to do with "smart" devices and social media that attention spans are getting shorter and shorter as the years go by, and entire populations have malleable brains that are so easily shifted and reshaped by institutional propaganda!

A complete understanding of 20th century history tells us that the west's "radical Islam" problem is a western creation to start with! Since...if we start with England's role, the first major Arab leader won over to the Allied cause again was the Emir of Mecca and Medina - Hussein bin Ali, who by being responsible for Islam's main holy sites, was the most influential leader in the Arab World, and was viewed as progressive or as T.E. Lawrence called him "a modernist." But, forget all the bullshit you hear since 9-11 about how western governments just want reform and modernization in the Muslim World, the British Government decided to shift all their resources behind the feudal autocrat- Ibn Saud, so he could take over Arabia instead! And that turned out so well for everyone!

After all the bullshit about how the US and Euro governments are 'encouraging democracy' in the world, the American Empire has time and time again aligned itself with the despots...whether they be Islamic fanatics reaching back to the 7th century, or fascists like the long-running US support for Hitler/Mussolini ally - Franco in Spain against all democratic forces, and the proliferation of third world despots the US has picked out and put in power after destroying democratic governments in Latin America, Africa and Asia in the decades after WWII.

Back to the history thing: anyone with a rudimentary understanding of modern history scoffs at the BS about the threat of Islamofascism and radical Islam in this century, since Islamism is not something most Muslims and even popular Muslim leaders wanted in the first place....but instead is the frankenstein monster cooked up by the spies and political scientists working in the CIA, Pentagon and the MI-6 over in England!
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 12:24 PM   #35
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Here's one for this 'Houseknight'

Zionism has Become an Existential Threat—to Jews
by Mark LeVine
With each new death in Gaza the Israeli government is not only sealing the judgement of history as to the irredeemably racist and violent core of Zionist nationalism, it is also flashing a giant red light at Jews everywhere, warning us that the movement started ostensibly to protect and normalize Jewish existence has become an existential threat—to Jews.

What else can one reasonably conclude when a new American embassy is opened to great fanfare in Jerusalem, its inauguration “blessed” by two pastors who openly call for the eternal damnation of the Jews as Israeli and Diaspora Jewish leaders beam with pride and sip champagne, while sixty miles away young Jews, in the name of their religion, massacre dozens of unarmed Palestinian women, men, children, elderly and young with utter inhumanity and impunity.

The increasingly fascistic Jewish nationalism of the State of Israel and its supporters in the organized Jewish communities of the Diaspora is widening a split within world Jewry, one that won’t be reconciled through dialog and understanding precisely because the choice is so stark and grounds for compromise non-existent. Globally there is a Jewish population of some 15 million souls. Well over half of them (about a third of American Jews, most Israeli Jews and the large majority of other Diaspora Jews) more or less enthusiastically support an unending and brutal colonial Occupation and Apartheid regime, an illegal and unconscionable dispossession of the colonized population of its lands and resources, the unremitting if spasmodic ethnic cleansing of the land, the increasingly genocidal rhetoric of the political leadership, and the insidious transformation of Jewish history, culture and faith these policies both demand and inevitably produce.

Those opposed to these policies, comprising a small percentage of Israeli Jews, a somewhat larger percentage of the global Diaspora, and the (sadly still too silent) majority of American Jews, have little power and even less room for manoeuvre, as they are squeezed between a rising tide of nationalism and anti-Semitism in their home countries and a Judaism in practice that is completely alien to the humanistic values of justice, mercy and equality which they always assumed represented the core of their identity........................................

Undaunted by the hatred of their most ardent Christian supporters, the fascist axis that has hijacked Judaism sees little reason to compromise or reconcile with their fellow Jews, never mind Palestinians. They are too drunk with power even to acknowledge the opposition, other than to attempt to crush it. Netanyahu, Kushner, Adelson & Co. firmly believe that they are the tail wagging the American dog, as American professors John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt famously claimed, who can bend America to Israel’s will and ensure US support for even the most atrocious policies and wars.

But these claims have always betrayed a confusion of cause and effect. Make no mistake, Israel is the tail wagging to the American war dog’s rhythm, for whom the Jewish state’s worth and function have ultimately been as a conduit for untold billions in profit from arms deals, wars, high oil prices, a hyper militarized global order and the “shared values” that protect and expand them all. In fact, Israel is more like a salamander’s tail than a dog’s; it can be sloughed off the moment it stops being useful, has fulfilled its purpose, or gets the US caught in a particularly unpleasant or dangerous situation. When that happens the Jew-hatred will return unfettered, and those with whom the Netanyahus and Kushners supped while Gaza bled and burned will turn their knives towards us...........................................

And so when Golda Meir infamously claimed there was no such thing as a Palestinian people, she wasn’t just denying their peoplehood, she was denying their humanity, making any sort of violence necessary to secure Zionist goals legitimate. Indeed, from the pre-1948 era and particularly after Zionist leaders understood that the surest path to victory was to dehumanize Palestinians through violence to the point where the only response they could produce was a far more feeble, but in fact quite useful, attempt at dehumanization in return, with whatever violence they could deploy merely serving to justify even more violence (and more to the point, more settlements) by Israel.

Similarly, when Ehud Barak declared that if he were Palestinian he would join Hamas, he was not admitting to a sin but rather letting us in on a strategy. He understood as well as anyone that the way to continue to hold the world’s grudging sympathy or at least indulgence was to push Palestinians past the point of any possibility of peaceful resistance so that they turn to the exact kind of dehumanizing violence that would trigger Israel’s (self-righteous) “purity of arms” in response. So well has this discourse worked that even as Palestinians have always, and today continue, to engage in innumerable and creative acts of non-violent resistance, the continue to be jailed, tortured and murdered on an almost daily basis without comment or concern by the majority of Israeli and Diaspora Jews, never mind Israel’s “allies” and defenders around the world.

What the present moment reminds us is that true liberal or progressive values simply can’t coexist with racially, religiously and/or ethnically grounded nationalisms. They are two very different epistemological and even ontological systems; when they interact, it is the latter which almost always triumphs, as Trump’s path of destruction of whatever remains of the liberal American state attests. Similarly, Zionism’s myriad sins are not accidental; nor are they mistakes or excesses of a basically (or at least originally) moral enterprise. Rather, they are original to the movement, coded into its baseline programming from the start—the same “conquest of land” and “conquest of labor” that guided Zionist policies in 1909 produced the Nakba in 1948, the Occupation in 1967, and the rise of Greater, fascist Israel in the last generation........................................ .......

The situation today presents a very troubling question: What are Progressive Jews, those who still put the core Prophetic ideals of our religious and cultural heritage, and our shared humanity with Palestinians and the broader non-Jewish world, ahead of the idolatrous worship of territory and brute power represented by Zionism and Israel, supposed to do? Who can we look to for support if our leaders and institutions have largely sold their souls? As attested by the near miraculous expansion of anti-Zionist Jewish groups like Jewish Voice for Peace, If Not Now and other movements who have built upon the moral witness and foundation of the Prophetic voices such as Tikkun and other Jewish Renewal groups, the Jewish community itself seems finally to be choosing sides—or rather, progressive Jews are in increasing numbers choosing to make a decisive break with Zionism as it presently exists and could conceivably exist in the foreseeable future............................................ ..................................


Mark LeVine, Tikkun’s longest serving Editorial Board member, teaches history at UC Irvine and is a research fellow at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Lund University and, most recently, at the University of Bologna’s Institute for Advanced Studies. He’s currently working on a collaboratively written history of the Occupation with several dozen leading Palestinian, Israeli and international scholars.
https://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/2-tik...-and-palestine
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Old May 25th, 2018, 06:41 AM   #36
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Yes, France played their share in plotting the course of history for the mutual benefit of France and England....that seems to be why England was so agreeable regarding the terms of divying up of the Arab World after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. France walked off with Lebanon and Syria...at the time the richest Arab territories of the Empire prior to the discovery of the vast oil reserves in the south.

Ain't it the truth! It must have something to do with "smart" devices and social media that attention spans are getting shorter and shorter as the years go by, and entire populations have malleable brains that are so easily shifted and reshaped by institutional propaganda!

A complete understanding of 20th century history tells us that the west's "radical Islam" problem is a western creation to start with! Since...if we start with England's role, the first major Arab leader won over to the Allied cause again was the Emir of Mecca and Medina - Hussein bin Ali, who by being responsible for Islam's main holy sites, was the most influential leader in the Arab World, and was viewed as progressive or as T.E. Lawrence called him "a modernist." But, forget all the bullshit you hear since 9-11 about how western governments just want reform and modernization in the Muslim World, the British Government decided to shift all their resources behind the feudal autocrat- Ibn Saud, so he could take over Arabia instead! And that turned out so well for everyone!

After all the bullshit about how the US and Euro governments are 'encouraging democracy' in the world, the American Empire has time and time again aligned itself with the despots...whether they be Islamic fanatics reaching back to the 7th century, or fascists like the long-running US support for Hitler/Mussolini ally - Franco in Spain against all democratic forces, and the proliferation of third world despots the US has picked out and put in power after destroying democratic governments in Latin America, Africa and Asia in the decades after WWII.

Back to the history thing: anyone with a rudimentary understanding of modern history scoffs at the BS about the threat of Islamofascism and radical Islam in this century, since Islamism is not something most Muslims and even popular Muslim leaders wanted in the first place....but instead is the frankenstein monster cooked up by the spies and political scientists working in the CIA, Pentagon and the MI-6 over in England!

You know more about this I do, but I am thinking perhaps we are the only ones on the forum who know this history? Look at the popular threads that are really no more than saying something inflammatory and the other side repeating the inflammatory things they say in every thread. And these folks think they are having a serious political argument. I think the furthest back in history their minds go is Trump and Hillary Clinton campaign. The wording of their arguments change very little, and yet they seem to love their inflaming arguments, and rarely do any of them enter a serious thread with information about issues.
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Old May 25th, 2018, 07:22 AM   #37
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[QUOTE=right to left;1169132][SIZE="4"]
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Those opposed to these policies, comprising a small percentage of Israeli Jews, a somewhat larger percentage of the global Diaspora, and the (sadly still too silent) majority of American Jews, have little power and even less room for manoeuvre, as they are squeezed between a rising tide of nationalism and anti-Semitism in their home countries and a Judaism in practice that is completely alien to the humanistic values of justice, mercy and equality which they always assumed represented the core of their identity........................................
Exactly the same thing could be said of Muslims! I was so frustrated with an Egyptian Muslim because she would not strongly argue the Muslim side in a forum like this one. She was so obedient to Allah's will for peace. I have known many very peaceful Muslims who fully believe peace is the will of Allah and they are very distressed by the trouble fanatic and violent Muslims are causing them. All most of us know of Muslims is the terrible things in the news, and in our of ignorance, we think the violent acts define all of them.

Because the Jews have been long established in the US and not the Muslims, our media tells us the Zionist side and the not the Muslim said, and what the Jews do to people who dare to speak against them is not news. And we should know there is a strong Jewish organization to assure all matters are favorable to Jews. But as all Muslims are not violent people, neither are all Jews mobilized for Zionist goals.

However, the Zionist, Evangelist Christians and adds fuel to the fire and we know not all Christians think our president is doing the will of God when the US bombs Muslims.

And the members of the forum go on and on about campaign spies and noticeably are not in this thread, while of freedom of speech has come to mean spreading false beliefs and not sticking around for the discussion. Reminds me of a rock with "How to amuse an idiot for hours.... turn rock over" Printed on both sides.
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Old May 25th, 2018, 07:30 AM   #38
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palestinians, like all poor people, are stupid and evil for bringing kids into such an effed-up world. Just forget the area, do what you can, as a young single person, to get out, by any means possible. you can't have a worse situation, so why not risk all? You can't beat isreal, they'll nuke you first and the US will support them doing so, if need be. Why bring kids into it? the dummies have had 40 years now to figure this out. Kids just make your situation MORE hopeless, so why have any, hmm?
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Old May 25th, 2018, 07:57 AM   #39
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What the present moment reminds us is that true liberal or progressive values simply can’t coexist with racially, religiously and/or ethnically grounded nationalisms.
Yes, but to have liberally minded people there must be liberal education! All over the world people are not understanding our capacity for reasoning does not come naturally. It is natural for us to receive and react to information like an animal, but to reason better than an animal requires teaching the process of logic.

Animals teach each other how to behave. They transmit a culture as does religion transmit a culture. Learning how to do things, is not equal to having enough skill in logic to reason through life's problems. Education for technology and leaving moral training to the church just does not prepare the young for democracy, rule by reason. This results in reactionary politics, and that is what we see in the forum, reactions but not the thinking that is essential to resolving differences.

Around the world, you know people learn about their religion and the religion transmits a culture that enables them to have a civilization. But this is not equal to have the reasoning skills that are essential to resolving conflicts of interest with those who are not one of us! I could go on and on about the importance of liberal education, but it is pointless when no one pays attention to what I am saying. We are geared to inflammatory threads as this one was intended to be, but not for meaningful discussion that could result in peace without bloodshed.
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Old May 30th, 2018, 07:40 PM   #40
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What the hell.....MOVE! Or is that too simple?
Hamas created Gaza concentration camp and supplied it by military force with the purpose to disable any possibility to achieve peace solution. Palestinian Islamists sought to force the only possibility: annihilation of Israel, namely genocide of the Jews, which is traditional stance of the Palestinian people. For centuries, the ancestors of Palestinians sought to eliminate Jews, and almost succeeded in this task. But currently, the hope for annihilation of Israel seems less reachable than ever. Antisemitic support to "Palestinian Cause" doesn't help. BDS fails to destroy Israel, Iran seems to abandon an idea in the light of Trump and Russia stance. Current Palestinian provocations in Gaza are effort to revive antisemitic crusade. Probably, Hamas seeks to force on Israel re-occupation of Gaza. This way Hamas may shift on Israel the responsibility for Gaza "concentration camp".
My proposal is sending international force to occupy Gaza and rescue the Gaza population from Hamas. For example, USA, Russia, Egypt and Saudis will participate. It's enough to wipe the military wing of Hamas and to ensure normal development of Gaza strip. Maybe, there will be possible to implement Netanyahu's idea: increasing Gaza territory at the expense of Egypt, while Israel will compensate Egypt.
The main obstacle for resolving Gaza problem is Hamas, not Israel. If the international community seeks to resolve Gaza problem, it must eliminate Hamas' military wing.

Last edited by houseknight; May 30th, 2018 at 07:45 PM.
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