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Old June 3rd, 2018, 03:41 PM   #61
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Here is footage of Israel bombing Gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brpcXfojooo
As bloody usual, people who just want to live their lives become targets for political leaders who use "religion" to pit the innocent against each other.

Damn the Zionists/Likuds. Damn them to hell.
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Old June 3rd, 2018, 05:25 PM   #62
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Yes, it is so difficult to try to unravel this mess and figure out what is really going on and what the real motivating factors are. I don't think religious beliefs or adherence play a big role..except as handy labels, as the same idiots who want to proclaim their Christianity feel free to advocate genocide of groups they don't like, and ally themselves with non-christians...that is the strange bedfellows we have with Christian Zionists and some Orthodox Jews who see the secular State of Israel as a precursor to the kind of Israel they want...complete with a king they'll proclaim as The Messiah, and a Third Temple built where the Al Aqsa Mosque sits today. Netanyahu and Likud have been playing footsy with this Temple Movement for so long that they have members right in the Israeli Government today and are gradually taking over. And what will happen when they decide to destroy the Grand Mosque to clear the way for their temple???????

The only alliances that will unravel now are the ones who have long considered Israel to be an embarrassing ally they don't like being seen in close company with/yet cooperate for military and strategic purposes....this would be the European Union, Saudi Arabia and their Gulf Emirate allies. Events like the massacres in Gaza are making it necessary for them to place more distance and deniability in their relationship with Israel.
If anything the Saudis are moving closer to Israel than away.
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Old June 4th, 2018, 02:03 AM   #63
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Go ahead and do that but the root cause of this entire issue is what happened in 1948.
The Jewish-Palestinian conflict started centuries before 1948. Simply, Jews were weak side, but in 1948 started to resist antisemitic assaults.
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Old June 4th, 2018, 02:21 AM   #64
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Clovis.
Clovis people have arrowheads that are strikingly similar to arrowheads used in Europe at that time. Europeans migrated here long before the Mongolians. Not too long ago there was the Kennewick Man debate. Kennewick Man was found on the bank of the Columbia River. Kennewick Man has Caucasian skull features which the Clinton Administration tried to cover up. Finally the federal government gave the bones of Kennewick Man to modern day native americans who promptly put them back in the ground at an undisclosed location.
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Old June 5th, 2018, 10:13 AM   #65
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The Jewish-Palestinian conflict started centuries before 1948. Simply, Jews were weak side, but in 1948 started to resist antisemitic assaults.

Where did you get that notion? Muslims repeatedly saved Jews from the Christians who were persecuting them.

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History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...er_Muslim_rule
Jewish communities have existed across the Middle East and North Africa since Antiquity. ... During waves of persecution in Medieval Europe, many Jews found refuge in Muslim lands. .... :58 He posits that Muslims considered Jews less theologically threatening than Christians did, suggesting that the ..... Print/export.
The problem is Zionism, not a historical conflict between Jews and Muslims.
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Old June 5th, 2018, 10:40 AM   #66
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Not everyone has given up hope. Nature controls much of what we do, look for a mate and reproduce and humans add to this ideas of love and happiness.

In looking for information the best alternative to life seems to be suicide. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C....0.iWL_dhLOOHU

Some of those who have made the anti-life choice are known as suicide bombers or terrorist. Thank you for bring up this point. These are people who know they can not have meaningful lives, because of their circumstances, so the chose to have meaningful deaths.
I haven't been following this discussion, but after my Twitter feed and news links were assaulted today by the apparent suicide of a very important and very wealthy fashion designer (I never heard of before) I am again reminded how much of mental illness and especially suicide is a very modern dysfunction, and almost unknown and unheard of in every traditional society around the world where family and community support is considered more important than individual wants and desires...as we are taught should be the goal in modern, western cultures.

And yes again, the phenomena of 'the suicide bomber' is also something almost unknown until modern times. It's a shame and a crime how so much of the so called Atheist Movement that looms so large online today, tries to connect everything bad with religious beliefs and adherence/ and everything good with secularism and atheism. Totally disregarding the fact that to be an atheist or humanist in the first place requires levels of education and economic comfort that make life easier than for average people!

An anthropologist named "Scott Atran," got my attention back when the Iraq War and Islamic terrorism, and overhyped atheist (pseudo)intellectuals like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and a few who followed after them, tried to make US and Israeli imperial wars all about Islam and the problem of belief in God and an afterlife. Atran...who had spent a few years studying and interviewing several attempted suicide bombers was invited and then for unknown reasons- disinvited to a public conference hosted by Sam Harris and a few prominent atheist scientists back in 05....so he crashed the event and got in line with mostly students to ask questions at the end of the show. I forget how much time he was able to get from Harris...who he directed most of his questions at, but it didn't take long to realize that Harris knew nothing about the attempted bombers and jihadi soldiers/nor was interested in what they claimed to be their own motivating reasons for seeking revenge.

Back in the early oughts when Hamas and 'Islamic Jihad' were using suicide bombers as warfare against Israel, anyone interested (according to Atran) could quickly learn that the young men being recruited knew little or nothing about their religion, were mostly unemployed with dismal future prospects of finding decent work or getting married and having families of their own; and all this made many of them prime subjects to recruit into a nihilistic movement telling them to look for a better world to come and give up on this one.

Now Harris and the atheist hordes can blather on and on about this aspect of Islamic terrorist movements, but will overlook the part about how suicide terrorism had become common in other completely different religious cultures around the world...mostly notably those recruited by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. But, it takes more...much more than a simpleminded faith that committing suicide can lead to a better life to come. Atran learned through his studies in the 90's up to 10 years ago, that none of the terrorists came from either prosperous families nor traditional families that were still farming and living on their traditional lands. Most traditional societies place a high premium on respect and feeling in control of their lives. So, when...for whatever reasons...families are displaced and/or feel they have to move out and into cities where they know few people and have little understanding of the cultural norms of the big city, religion is about the only solace and source of stability they can find living in the new rat race of working long hours at menial jobs to try to feed their families. When they are unable to do this...such as thousands of Indian farmers placed into bankruptcy by debts caused by Monsanto and being pushed along the path to modern mechanized agriculture, they are inclined to drink the insecticide they had been spraying on their plants when after the move to the city, they are considered too old to work in the sweatshops. If the right ingredients are also available...such as an easily identifiable external enemy, their children who feel the same humiliation and loss of status may be easy to talk into donning a jacket filled with explosives and running at Israeli soldiers etc...

So, getting back to Israel, this settler/colonial power had to choose between two options to deal with Palestinian unrest and feelings of humiliation:
1: treat them as equals and recognize land claims and compensate them fairly for lands that cannot be returned by sheer weight of numbers of new immigrants to Israel (sort of like some of the indigenous land claims in North America that go unresolved today), OR

2: cut them off entirely from working in Israel and Israeli settlements in Occupied Territories, and replace their loss of cheap labor with new immigrants to Israel that are not fully accepted as Jewish or respected because of their skin color and origins...like the Ethiopian Jews and even many Sephardic Jews that are still kept at arms length by the Euro-Jews who started the Israel Project and run it today.

It's pretty clear that Israel decided to go with option #2 as it was certainly the cheapest option in the short term...but will that still be the case in the long term? As we've seen with the way Israel has to commit more crimes and become increasingly repressive...even with their own population, the long term price for today's fascist Israel that has only one clear ally in the world- the global superpower is a precarious existence for a number of reasons!
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Old June 5th, 2018, 10:43 AM   #67
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Hell yes it's a problem. It's been nothing but a problem.

Zionism does not equal Judaism.

What do you say about giving back the land upon which you're living to those who historically owned it?

I don't wish the Zionists/Likud any harm, but I'm tired of their leaders dragging us into their conflicts.
Zionism equals the establishment of Israel. Over the centuries many have claimed Jerusalem. It wasn't until the 20th century that Jerusalem became a political issue. Muslim religious claims are weak at best. There is no mention of Jerusalem to be found in the Quran.
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Old June 5th, 2018, 10:49 AM   #68
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Clovis people have arrowheads that are strikingly similar to arrowheads used in Europe at that time. Europeans migrated here long before the Mongolians. Not too long ago there was the Kennewick Man debate. Kennewick Man was found on the bank of the Columbia River. Kennewick Man has Caucasian skull features which the Clinton Administration tried to cover up. Finally the federal government gave the bones of Kennewick Man to modern day native americans who promptly put them back in the ground at an undisclosed location.
Aren't you supposed to be a fucking engineer or something? You seem to brag about this to try to claim some intellectual superiority over the rest of us, but here you obviously don't know a goddammed thing about anthropology studies or you would have disregarded the obviously RACIST crap called the 'Solutrean Theory of Origins' that supposedly placed Phoenicians or some others from Europe here in the Americas. This Solutrean hypothesis has never been accepted by the majority of anthropologists...just a handful of cranks who enrich themselves off of the Virginia Dare and pseudo-intellectual white racist theorist groups that seem to have some rich benefactors willing to pay for this crap!

Rejecting the Solutrean hypothesis: the first peoples in the Americas were not from Europe

A recent Canadian documentary promoted a fringe idea in American archaeology thatís both scientifically wrong and racist

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ot-from-europe
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Old June 5th, 2018, 10:57 AM   #69
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If anything the Saudis are moving closer to Israel than away.
Of all of Israel's allies, the Saudis are in the most uncomfortable position of all! They are allied with Israel for strictly economic and geopolitical reasons. They fought against the Pan-Arabist movements that put them on the same side as Israel, but let's not forget that their primary claim of legitimacy to rule is as "Guardians of Islam's Two Holy Sites", and this supposedly means that they are working in the best interests of all of the world's Muslims (or true Muslims) and not in the interests of the unbelievers. As long as the news of the conflict in Palestine can be kept to a whisper in the global news cycle, they can continue on playing their duplicitous games....let's not forget that one of the shocking quid pro quo's provided by the Israeli state has been aiding and even providing medical assistance for the ISIS terrorists that were located near the Israeli border...but for some reason never attacked or even mentioned Israeli forces! This whole sham is getting harder to hide now!
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Old June 5th, 2018, 11:05 AM   #70
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I hope all Christians understand what the Palestinian and Israel clash has to do with people speaking out against Christianity. Those Christians who are not Zionist need to do something about the Christians who are supporting Zionism. This conflict is very likely to bring us to a nuclear war and we will blame Christians for this because the US is dominated by Christians and the US is the power that empowers Israel. Trump is completely tied to escalating the problem and his loving followers believe he is Christian.

The world has one hope. Destroying the religions that repeatedly bring us to war and Trump has increased the non-Christian concern about this. Perhaps when we go to the polls, we should ask not only what a person's party is but also what are the person's religious affiliations. If Jews or Christians are paying for a candidates campaign, perhaps we don't want this person in office? As a global power, we must vote with global considerations.
It's worth mentioning that...though their numbers are dwindling rapidly mostly by way of easier emigration out of Palestine, there still is a Christian remnant among the Palestinian population on the West Bank. Their persecution and rejection of the State of Israel is an embarrassment to so called 'Christian Zionists' who do a large portion of the funding for building more settlements for more foreign Jews to take more land in Palestine today.

When VICE News was still worth watching, they ran a documentary 10 years ago about a group of these Christian Zionists in the company of some big, fat, pasty-faced televangelist who took them on a tour of the "Holy Land" for their generous donations to the cause. The VICE journalist ambushed the pastor with a Palestinian who through a translator told of how his olive groves were being torn out without compensation to build yet another settlement. When the pastor got on his bicycle and started blathering his canned spiel about "this is land that was given to Israel....blah...blah...blah...blah, the reporter interrupted him to inform him that the farmer and the village they were standing near were Christian Palestinians belonging to the Greek Orthodox Church....and of course the dumbfounded preacher had to drop to some crap about "getting right with God and God's will" before beating a hasty retreat out of there!
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