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Old September 19th, 2016, 01:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
Yeah Yeah Yeah. Alexander Hamilton and Madison debated this and our Supreme Court ruled that Hamilton was right. Love or hate the SC its constitutional.
No they did not. They debated a bank. Using Hamilton is an ignorant argument. Every single idea of Hamilton's was voted against at the convention. Hamilton was prevented from being an influence at the convention by Governor Clinton before the convention convened by his appointing Yates and Lansing to temper Hamilton’s anti-state’s rights votes and his strong federal government views. After being outvoted by the convention and his two fellow New Yorkers at every turn and his ideas not garnering any votes or support at the convention, Hamilton left the convention for New York in a state of ire in June.

That is why you cannot produce any record from the convention to substantiate your claim, and Hamilton's stunt was one of the reasons that the Federalists were decimated in the election of 1800.
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Old September 19th, 2016, 06:27 PM   #22
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Try section 8 of Article 1 jimmb.

My thoughts are simple. I just believe the median household income is being inflated due to more people (mainly the younger generation) moving in with each other or their parents. Therefore contributing to the household income. Individual income is still terrible.

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That is a very astute observation.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 02:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
No they did not. They debated a bank. Using Hamilton is an ignorant argument. Every single idea of Hamilton's was voted against at the convention. Hamilton was prevented from being an influence at the convention by Governor Clinton before the convention convened by his appointing Yates and Lansing to temper Hamilton’s anti-state’s rights votes and his strong federal government views. After being outvoted by the convention and his two fellow New Yorkers at every turn and his ideas not garnering any votes or support at the convention, Hamilton left the convention for New York in a state of ire in June.

That is why you cannot produce any record from the convention to substantiate your claim, and Hamilton's stunt was one of the reasons that the Federalists were decimated in the election of 1800.
I thought I'll give you an early morning response. Look jimmyb, you're not wrong nor are you right. The Supreme Court ruled that General Welfare should be broadly interpreted and that's that.

It's legal and that's it. Period. I hate citizens United and the Buckley case and you hate the davis case. They're legal.

What else do you want to discuss? I haven't debated here in a long time. So feel free to have a go with me if you like. Could be your last for a while.
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Last edited by Fayt; September 20th, 2016 at 02:41 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 04:45 AM   #24
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Anymore thoughts as for why our median household income have rising?

Maybe someone else said that but the income rising is just one more indication that our nation is coming/has come OUT of the recession. It's tied to growth in employment. From the AP: "The income gains and drop in poverty reflect ongoing gains in the job market, Renwick said. About 2.4 million more Americans found full-time, year-round jobs in 2015.
"Americans are also likely benefiting from an increase in middle-income jobs. Many of the jobs created in the early years of the recovery have been in low-paying sectors, such as fast food restaurants and retail.
"But according to a report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, in 2014 and 2015 the growth of middle-income jobs in sectors such as shipping and construction outpaced the gains in lower-paying and higher-paying work."
And as we approach the holidays we should see another lift in income. Stores are hiring thousands more for part-time work which will raise the income for middle class families.
Here's another tidbit. The number of people with health insurance also rose. More than 90 percent of Americans are covered by health insurance — an increase of 1.3 percentage points since 2014, and growth of 4.3 percentage points since the major provisions of the Affordable Care Act, the bureau says.
It's been dreadfully slow, but this country is coming back.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 04:55 AM   #25
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median income is UP 5% from 2014... DOWN $3500from 2008.


Incomes in BUSH'S WORST YEAR is better than the Best year of Obama.
Yes, median income was higher before Bush and the GOP congress crashed the economy.
The economy was pretty good before Hoover and the GOP congress crashed the economy too.

That BTW is the last two times the GOP controlled The White House, the Senate and the House...coincidence?
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Old September 20th, 2016, 06:23 AM   #26
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I thought I'll give you an early morning response. Look jimmyb, you're not wrong nor are you right. The Supreme Court ruled that General Welfare should be broadly interpreted and that's that.

It's legal and that's it. Period. I hate citizens United and the Buckley case and you hate the davis case. They're legal.

What else do you want to discuss? I haven't debated here in a long time. So feel free to have a go with me if you like. Could be your last for a while.
How a Supreme Court rules is not the issue. Defaulting to a Supreme Court ruling without being able to defend the ruling on the constitutional merits is not an argument. Anyone with an Internet connection and Google can do that. If you want to use McCulloch v. Maryland then you need to produce the evidence from the convention, the state convention debates, and the general understanding of the welfare clause that the general welfare clause was a plenary power in contrast to the man who wrote the necessary and proper clause and his explaination that the welfare clause's only power was limited to the enumerated powers and also any of Hamilton's designs regarding the welfare clause passing--they were all voted down.

Last edited by Jimmyb; September 20th, 2016 at 06:35 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 06:29 AM   #27
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Maybe someone else said that but the income rising is just one more indication that our nation is coming/has come OUT of the recession. It's tied to growth in employment. From the AP: "The income gains and drop in poverty reflect ongoing gains in the job market, Renwick said. About 2.4 million more Americans found full-time, year-round jobs in 2015.
"Americans are also likely benefiting from an increase in middle-income jobs. Many of the jobs created in the early years of the recovery have been in low-paying sectors, such as fast food restaurants and retail.
"But according to a report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, in 2014 and 2015 the growth of middle-income jobs in sectors such as shipping and construction outpaced the gains in lower-paying and higher-paying work."
And as we approach the holidays we should see another lift in income. Stores are hiring thousands more for part-time work which will raise the income for middle class families.
Here's another tidbit. The number of people with health insurance also rose. More than 90 percent of Americans are covered by health insurance — an increase of 1.3 percentage points since 2014, and growth of 4.3 percentage points since the major provisions of the Affordable Care Act, the bureau says.
It's been dreadfully slow, but this country is coming back.
The median income only rise 2% for full-time American workers. Add the negative income growth rate since 2009 with the 2% growth rate and fewer people in the work force today than in 2009 and the data matches what would be expected from a 1% something GDP growth rate.

I am certain that not one person making the 5% gain in the median income has read a single sentence from the Census report and are only repeating headlines from blogs and news reports.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 06:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by goober View Post
Yes, median income was higher before Bush and the GOP congress crashed the economy.
The economy was pretty good before Hoover and the GOP congress crashed the economy too.

That BTW is the last two times the GOP controlled The White House, the Senate and the House...coincidence?
That is not accurate.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 11:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Maybe someone else said that but the income rising is just one more indication that our nation is coming/has come OUT of the recession. It's tied to growth in employment. From the AP: "The income gains and drop in poverty reflect ongoing gains in the job market, Renwick said. About 2.4 million more Americans found full-time, year-round jobs in 2015.
"Americans are also likely benefiting from an increase in middle-income jobs. Many of the jobs created in the early years of the recovery have been in low-paying sectors, such as fast food restaurants and retail.
"But according to a report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, in 2014 and 2015 the growth of middle-income jobs in sectors such as shipping and construction outpaced the gains in lower-paying and higher-paying work."
And as we approach the holidays we should see another lift in income. Stores are hiring thousands more for part-time work which will raise the income for middle class families.
Here's another tidbit. The number of people with health insurance also rose. More than 90 percent of Americans are covered by health insurance — an increase of 1.3 percentage points since 2014, and growth of 4.3 percentage points since the major provisions of the Affordable Care Act, the bureau says.
It's been dreadfully slow, but this country is coming back.
Not a bad observation. About 80% of out economy is service based. I don't think that's a good thing for the reason that we're not creating wealth by manufacturing more. More part time employees? I still count them out of the labor force. I'm pretty sure most are actually looking for full time work.

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Old September 20th, 2016, 11:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
How a Supreme Court rules is not the issue. Defaulting to a Supreme Court ruling without being able to defend the ruling on the constitutional merits is not an argument. Anyone with an Internet connection and Google can do that. If you want to use McCulloch v. Maryland then you need to produce the evidence from the convention, the state convention debates, and the general understanding of the welfare clause that the general welfare clause was a plenary power in contrast to the man who wrote the necessary and proper clause and his explaination that the welfare clause's only power was limited to the enumerated powers and also any of Hamilton's designs regarding the welfare clause passing--they were all voted down.
It kind of is the issue because it's legal. That's all I'm saying. Are you against judicial review?
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