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Old March 8th, 2018, 08:30 PM   #21
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Where is the Socialism in Sabcat's statement?
@guy

Sabcat described a generalized Market system, which is potentially consistent with Workers Cooperatives. Some people define Capitalism in a bit more restricted sense, where there is necessarily an employer-employee relationship, i.e. owners/bosses/managers compared to 'lower-end' workers. This is not the case with 'Worker Cooperatives', as this posits businesses owned and self-managed by the workers. That is, every worker is a part-owner, and engage in a collaborative effort in a democratic system to make the company run efficiently.

Then, the difference is between (A) Hierarchy as fundamental--Employer & Employee (B ) Democracy as fundamental-- all are worker-owners

To be clear, I am not necessarily disagreeing with Sabcat's use of the term, I am just trying to clarify how he (and you, guy) see the matter. Both are Market systems, which, in some ways are very similar & in other ways are worlds apart. Of course, there is also no reason why a mixture of the two could not occur as well; i.e. some companies are structured in the 'traditional' format, while others are 'Worker Co-ops'

Thoughts?
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Old March 8th, 2018, 08:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
@guy

Sabcat described a generalized Market system, which is potentially consistent with Workers Cooperatives. Some people define Capitalism in a bit more restricted sense, where there is necessarily an employer-employee relationship, i.e. owners/bosses/managers compared to 'lower-end' workers. This is not the case with 'Worker Cooperatives', as this posits businesses owned and self-managed by the workers. That is, every worker is a part-owner, and engage in a collaborative effort in a democratic system to make the company run efficiently.

Then, the difference is between (A) Hierarchy as fundamental--Employer & Employee (B ) Democracy as fundamental-- all are worker-owners

To be clear, I am not necessarily disagreeing with Sabcat's use of the term, I am just trying to clarify how he (and you, guy) see the matter. Both are Market systems, which, in some ways are very similar & in other ways are worlds apart. Of course, there is also no reason why a mixture of the two could not occur as well; i.e. some companies are structured in the 'traditional' format, while others are 'Worker Co-ops'

Thoughts?
I have no problem with co-operatives. My bank is a credit union. They must be free and willing co-ops though and not forced upon business in the name of fill in the blank Socialism/Communism.

With that being said, it does appear to me you made a bit of a leap assuming Sabcat was refering to a co-op.

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Old March 8th, 2018, 09:13 PM   #23
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With that being said, it does appear to me you made a bit of a leap assuming Sabcat was refering to a co-op.
@guy

I was not suggesting he was specifically indicating Co-Ops in anyway. Rather, I was pointing out it was a more expansive definition of 'Capitalism' than some would use--though I do not necessarily disagree with his usage.

As for the other point you made--I agree. That is, Co-Ops cannot/should not be achieved by 'force', but rather through 'fair play'. For instance, I think it would be very unjust indeed if Walmart was forced to become a Co-Op 'tomorrow', as it clearly did not start out that way and would be essentially stealing from the owner. The proper way to go about such a transition, if desired, would be for employees to attempt to buy the company out, 'fair-and-square'
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Old March 9th, 2018, 03:44 AM   #24
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I'm all for capitalism, but it needs to be regulated--just like anything else. I was a business owner at one time and loved it (made a good profit).
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Old March 9th, 2018, 04:54 AM   #25
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Capitalism is part of the identity of humanity.
Like the pox.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 05:49 AM   #26
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Like the pox.
Oh, no, it's much worse than that. Capitalism is here with us every day, all the time; it's unavoidable without living on some remote tropical island with no other inhabitants. The pox, on the other hand, is rather temporary and only briefly comes then goes away.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 12:26 PM   #27
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Elephant in the room, capitalism is a system predicated on ceaseless growth, continuous inputs of new resources both material and human.

And financial. Before the days of fiat currency, capitalism expanded through producing or stealing gold and silver. That's how currency was expanded before the advent of paper currency which represented "promises to pay" the holder hard currency.

The dependence upon continuous growth is the Achilles Heel of capitalism. Not only is our earth finite, capitalism's potential for making big bucks has also revealed its ability to trash the planet and life on it.

Capitalism has us headed toward a dead end. How far ahead is it? That's difficult to say, but it's ahead of us.

Capitalism is said to harness human greed in a profitable way. It will work that way until we hit the dead end.

Colonizing the Moon or Mars as a solution is just another part of the capitalist delusion that it's a sustainable economic model. Humans must understand the earth's resources are not infinite, and we need to understand that we cannot breed indiscriminately.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 01:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Elephant in the room, capitalism is a system predicated on ceaseless growth, continuous inputs of new resources both material and human.

And financial. Before the days of fiat currency, capitalism expanded through producing or stealing gold and silver. That's how currency was expanded before the advent of paper currency which represented "promises to pay" the holder hard currency.

The dependence upon continuous growth is the Achilles Heel of capitalism. Not only is our earth finite, capitalism's potential for making big bucks has also revealed its ability to trash the planet and life on it.

Capitalism has us headed toward a dead end. How far ahead is it? That's difficult to say, but it's ahead of us.

Capitalism is said to harness human greed in a profitable way. It will work that way until we hit the dead end.

Colonizing the Moon or Mars as a solution is just another part of the capitalist delusion that it's a sustainable economic model. Humans must understand the earth's resources are not infinite, and we need to understand that we cannot breed indiscriminately.
Oh brother.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 01:15 PM   #29
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Capitalism is amoral. But within capitalism we have the option to act morally.

Socialism, communism, or any such coercive system is immoral and nothing good can come from it.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 01:20 PM   #30
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Capitalism is never in a constant state. Generally, it has worked well. But, there are times like the 20ís and today where disproportionate financial influence has been leveraged in and out of government that yields a very skewed result. We are currently experiencing such a period and this has led to a capitalistic system that is spiraling out of control and causing ever greater levels of civil unrest.
Capitalism is never in a constant state. It evolves. Generally, it has worked well but that was when there was plenty of room for the requirements of capitalism to be fulfilled. Capitalism requires compounded growth and compounded profits, providing compounded wealth for the elite. But such compounding is not sustainable. At some point the need for growth and profits begin to require strategies that are increasingly harmful to the population, and that defy solution more and more. We are at that point. The ongoing stock market rise is the result not of improving living standards and the growing consumption and the corporate growth that results from such improvement, but rather it is the result of increases in stock buy-backs and of mergers. This, since 2008, is the first market rise in which the people have not shared in the benefits as they did historically in previous rises.

Capitalism is growing more predatory because it has exceeded its usefulness in developing production and technology and living standards. This is where it is in its evolutionary path, and it can only get worse from here. There is no going back because capitalism cannot revert to a less-developed stage and do it all again.
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