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Old March 9th, 2018, 05:38 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
Socialism is always sold by appealing to envy and implemented by theft.
Wrong on both counts.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 07:47 PM   #42
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Capitalism: Pros & Cons
There are no pros to capitalism anymore! And, after reading through a few comments, the parameters need to be narrowed a little to define exactly what we're talking about here. It's not about buying and selling products at a local market, this is about capital accumulation, recognizing artificial persons (corporations) and investing them with almost all rights of personhood...maybe even more than real people, since they can effectively be immortal! And, modern capitalism functions in a globally managed system...the World Trade Organization, which is the only international organization that actually has real governing power over the nations of this planet...too bad it's not a force for good! But, is instead only concerned with expanding markets, increasing trade, increasing profits, and even this would not be so bad if it wasn't for the most disturbing fact of all:
WE LIVE IN A FINITE WORLD WITH FINITE RESOURCES

Maybe if this was 200 or so years ago and there less than a billion people on Earth, and CO2 levels were still less than 300 ppm etc., it wouldn't be so bad having a global economic system that can only function normally when it is expanding money supplies and corresponding levels of debt....but, here we are! With the world's major capitalist economies struggling to find room to grow, and now the only way they can even manage more than 2% growth is by funding and fomenting wars, loading up the poorest nations of the world with unpayable levels of debt/then seizing land and other assets as payment...demanding they adopt austerity budgets to impoverish their citizens further, and disaster capitalism is finding its way into the G7 nations, first with southern Europe and then England, Germany and France adopting austerity budgets and busting unions...and then their dumbfounded why fascist parties are rising up and filling the void left by their centrist politicians! And it's much the same story in America, where enough struggling Americans rejected the notion that "life is pretty great in America" that they made a real estate con man and reality tv start the 45th president.

So, the wars, the increases in poverty, environmental devastation and many other issues are usually kept compartmentalized into separate subcategories to solve separately; but I believe they should all be viewed as symptoms of late stage capitalism making its last desperate grabs for what's left before the whole system collapses, and hopefully unlike collapses of past civilizations, there will be something left for people to rebuild something that provides a little more sanity!
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Last edited by right to left; March 9th, 2018 at 07:49 PM.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 08:04 PM   #43
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Envy comes from the polluted heart of man not just because someone has more than someone else. Poverty? Capitalism has performed a miracle of raising more people out of abject poverty than ever at any time in human history.

-
No, that Green Revolution bullshit is just that: pure bullshit! When millions of Africans and Asians, formerly described as "subsistence" farmers are all of a sudden forced off their lands by laws following the principle of the first Enclosure acts in England, which cleared the commons of enough itinerant farmers and sheepherders to fill the new factory sweatshops with low wage laborers, that sudden appearance of these new people as wage laborers who have to buy food and pay rent, makes it look like they're more prosperous than before, when they were on the land...but, is there quality of life better than it was before?

When it comes to the Green Revolution itself, global grain and other food production levels haven't significantly increased for a number of years. A lot of this may be drought-related, but nevertheless, the declines in food production have played their part in fomenting wars and unrest that have added to the grow mass migration crisis that's knocking on Europe's doors right now, and will hit them in a much bigger way in a few years.

Green Revolution hybrids created by Norman Borlaug and other scientists have been way overplayed as the reason for increased yields in the 70's and 80's, but the main reason for higher food production was adapting oil drilling techniques to get at buried water aquifers for irrigation and applying artificial fertilizers. The bad news is that ground water in most of the major grain-growing regions of the world (including the United States) is drying up and topsoil is disappearing and will be gone in a few decades also, because mechanized farming methods don't allow topsoil the chance to rebuild.

So, the Green Revolution and whatever great achievements of capitalism you think have lifted millions out of poverty, should all be regarded as looting nature's bank, and now that there will soon be nothing left, what then? Who's going to give a rats ass about poverty stats when billions are facing starvation and there's nothing left?
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Old March 9th, 2018, 10:06 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
Socialism is always sold by appealing to envy and implemented by theft.
Capitalism is sold by appealing to greed and depends on theft. Six of one......
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Old March 10th, 2018, 03:28 AM   #45
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Capitalism is part of the identity of humanity.
It's only had power anywhere since the Seventeenth Century. Humanity has lived under various insane systems, but only capitalism piles up enough thieving to make it possible to imagine everybody living above the apes.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 06:38 AM   #46
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It's only had power anywhere since the Seventeenth Century. Humanity has lived under various insane systems, but only capitalism piles up enough thieving to make it possible to imagine everybody living above the apes.
Just think... "the identity of humanity". Egad. The epitome of narrow, self-centered thinking. A guy lives in a time in which all he knows is capitalism (which has only existed for about 400 out of 20,000 years of civilization or more - 2%) and he thinks that's all there is. LOL!!!!
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Old March 10th, 2018, 06:51 AM   #47
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Capitalism is sold by appealing to greed and depends on theft. Six of one......
People typically fail to realize that economic systems have a "life cycle". They think we can just dial back the system to a "better time" (which never existed). They think we can pick and choose from a list of economic systems based on pure "preference". But economic systems come into being because they offer significant benefits to society where society stands at the moment, and they change society, which means society then needs something a bit different. And if change is neglected, conditions begin to deteriorate, -always mostly for the masses but for the benefit of the rich. Problems become increasingly numerous, deepen, and become intractable because they are actually created by the system which no longer offers a way out. That's when a new system is in order. And there is a definite sequence based on how civilization advances and progresses. "Preference" based on partisan bias reveal an immature, undeveloped understanding of economies.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 07:34 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Capitalism is sold by appealing to greed and depends on theft. Six of one......
Capitalism is simply the exchange of goods and services by use of capital (money).

All this crap about greed and theft is what people who want communism think.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 08:01 AM   #49
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Capitalism is simply the exchange of goods and services by use of capital (money).

All this crap about greed and theft is what people who want communism think.
Gee, the world is so simple, isn't it?
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Old March 10th, 2018, 09:07 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Kode View Post
People typically fail to realize that economic systems have a "life cycle". They think we can just dial back the system to a "better time" (which never existed). They think we can pick and choose from a list of economic systems based on pure "preference". But economic systems come into being because they offer significant benefits to society where society stands at the moment, and they change society, which means society then needs something a bit different. And if change is neglected, conditions begin to deteriorate, -always mostly for the masses but for the benefit of the rich. Problems become increasingly numerous, deepen, and become intractable because they are actually created by the system which no longer offers a way out. That's when a new system is in order. And there is a definite sequence based on how civilization advances and progresses. "Preference" based on partisan bias reveal an immature, undeveloped understanding of economies.
Karl and the first generation of Marxists made the biggest mistake by assuming that capitalism would just fall under its own weight, rather than be revived and retrenched every time there was an economic collapse. Marx thought it would be easy to just replace capitalism, but Lenin, Mao and the leaders of the Soviet Union and China soon discovered that the capitalist west was willing to join together to try to destroy communist systems wherever they arose...even witnessing all 19 combatants of WWI joining together in a common front to surround the Russian Federation and try to overthrow the provisional communist government and all the local soviet councils across the land. Marx should have realized how far capitalists are willing to go to maintain their system of control after witnessing the French Government inviting in the same Prussians who they were at war with...who overran eastern France, to come in and put down the Paris Revolt and destroy the Paris Commune.

So, I don't believe the forces of capitalism have or recognize a life cycle! They are intent of maintaining the dominance and control by capital markets until the very end, regardless of the consequences to everyone.
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