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Old March 10th, 2018, 09:11 AM   #51
end capitalism now
 
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Capitalism is simply the exchange of goods and services by use of capital (money).

All this crap about greed and theft is what people who want communism think.
capital accumulation is theft of the residual value of worker's labor. Communism is worker ownership of their means of production, and deciding how their labor and residual value of that labor is to be used.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 09:18 AM   #52
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Delusional rewrite of history
What's delusional about it ?? The early industrial age didn't have child labor ?? Didn't pay pennies an hour and expect workers to put in 12, 14 16 hour days ?? The rise of a true middle class didn't coincide with the rise of unions and the eventual passing of federal and state labor laws ?? Wages haven't been flat for nearly 20 years ??
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Old March 10th, 2018, 11:17 AM   #53
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This forum is infested with Communists.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 11:26 AM   #54
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This forum is infested with Communists.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 11:43 AM   #55
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capital accumulation is theft of the residual value of worker's labor. Communism is worker ownership of their means of production, and deciding how their labor and residual value of that labor is to be used.
Really.. Strange how Socialist Economies fail the NAtion falls.

But if a Capitalist System fails, The System Resets.. every time.

Look at the Clinton Recession of 2000.. 911 attacks, 18 months later the GDP was at a Record High,

Then we had the Democrat Party Mortgage Crisis of 2008.

The 8 years of increasing socialism, and Stagnation. 1 year of Capitalism our economy has Reset and is once again Returning to growth and GDP is hitting Record Highs again, Meidan Incomes Growing again (That would be working class incomes)
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Old March 11th, 2018, 09:53 AM   #56
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This forum is infested with Communists.
Thank You! Though I don't buy into humanism so I don't accept all of Marxist theory.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 10:14 AM   #57
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Really.. Strange how Socialist Economies fail the NAtion falls.

But if a Capitalist System fails, The System Resets.. every time.

Look at the Clinton Recession of 2000.. 911 attacks, 18 months later the GDP was at a Record High,

Then we had the Democrat Party Mortgage Crisis of 2008.

The 8 years of increasing socialism, and Stagnation. 1 year of Capitalism our economy has Reset and is once again Returning to growth and GDP is hitting Record Highs again, Meidan Incomes Growing again (That would be working class incomes)
I mentioned before that the first radical socialist government - the Paris Commune of 1870 was considered such a threat by the French state authorities that they invited their enemies-the Prussian Empire in to help quell the socialist/anarchist uprising and restore authoritarian government.

And, as I've also mentioned before, all of the warring nations on all sides of Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution converged to invade and try to destroy the new communist government that was just beginning to form and try to consolidate control and establish socialist governing institutions for the first time in history.

So, NO socialist government anywhere in the world, anywhere in time, exists in a vacuum! The owners of capital and bankers demand revolution or outright foreign invasion of communist governments, and even work to destabilize social democratic governments that are not considered business-friendly enough by the international cabal that runs the WTO and G-20 nations. R2P means Responsibility To Protect Capital/Not People!

Now, there are socialist governments where average people live better than the average of nearby nations...too bad for the one percent club! Cuba for example provides the basics of life for all its citizens. I didn't see any homeless people on the streets of Havana or near the hotel districts. The biggest aggravation for foreign tourists are persistent vendors trying to sell crap for foreign currency in the tourist zones...but I'll take that over tour destinations in Mexico, Central America or Columbia where you risk getting killed or kidnapped if you step outside of a protected tourist zone without armed guards.

But, as I see it, the Cubans...like many from former communist east bloc countries who lived under communism and also lived through the disaster that killed millions after the fall of communism in one nation after another, tell similar stories of being enticed by the media images of wealth and opulence in the west/compared to their drab lives! They thought that all they had to do was end communism and they would live like the people they saw in foreign movie and TV videos.....but as things ended up, a few (like the Russian oligarchs everyone's complaining about today) got the lion's share of the prosperity while everyone else ended up worse off than they were before!

And capitalism should be viewed as a forest fire that rages and keeps burning brighter and brighter, but all the while is consuming more and more resources and destroying more and more habitats and ecosystems at increasing rates! While capitalism expands, everything appears to be going great for many of the people/ BUT what happens when economies flatline or can't grow fast enough and capitalist governments become increasingly ruthless and desperate to extract expected profits....like they're doing today?

So, I don't even buy the notion that this is a choice between two parallel economic and governing systems. I see it as a last chance for the human race to design and build a sustainable system on the ashes of a corrupt, wasteful system that cannot survive indefinitely regardless of the intentions of its supporters and proponents.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 10:36 AM   #58
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I mentioned before that the first radical socialist government - the Paris Commune of 1870 was considered such a threat by the French state authorities that they invited their enemies-the Prussian Empire in to help quell the socialist/anarchist uprising and restore authoritarian government.

And, as I've also mentioned before, all of the warring nations on all sides of Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution converged to invade and try to destroy the new communist government that was just beginning to form and try to consolidate control and establish socialist governing institutions for the first time in history.

So, NO socialist government anywhere in the world, anywhere in time, exists in a vacuum! The owners of capital and bankers demand revolution or outright foreign invasion of communist governments, and even work to destabilize social democratic governments that are not considered business-friendly enough by the international cabal that runs the WTO and G-20 nations. R2P means Responsibility To Protect Capital/Not People!

Now, there are socialist governments where average people live better than the average of nearby nations...too bad for the one percent club! Cuba for example provides the basics of life for all its citizens. I didn't see any homeless people on the streets of Havana or near the hotel districts. The biggest aggravation for foreign tourists are persistent vendors trying to sell crap for foreign currency in the tourist zones...but I'll take that over tour destinations in Mexico, Central America or Columbia where you risk getting killed or kidnapped if you step outside of a protected tourist zone without armed guards.

But, as I see it, the Cubans...like many from former communist east bloc countries who lived under communism and also lived through the disaster that killed millions after the fall of communism in one nation after another, tell similar stories of being enticed by the media images of wealth and opulence in the west/compared to their drab lives! They thought that all they had to do was end communism and they would live like the people they saw in foreign movie and TV videos.....but as things ended up, a few (like the Russian oligarchs everyone's complaining about today) got the lion's share of the prosperity while everyone else ended up worse off than they were before!

And capitalism should be viewed as a forest fire that rages and keeps burning brighter and brighter, but all the while is consuming more and more resources and destroying more and more habitats and ecosystems at increasing rates! While capitalism expands, everything appears to be going great for many of the people/ BUT what happens when economies flatline or can't grow fast enough and capitalist governments become increasingly ruthless and desperate to extract expected profits....like they're doing today?

So, I don't even buy the notion that this is a choice between two parallel economic and governing systems. I see it as a last chance for the human race to design and build a sustainable system on the ashes of a corrupt, wasteful system that cannot survive indefinitely regardless of the intentions of its supporters and proponents.
Yes they live better until the economy of 1929 hits or the Economy of 2000 hits, or the Economy of 2008 or the economy of 1979 hits.

Socialist economies fail.

Capitalist Economies Reboot..

March of 2000 the markets crashed.. 2004 Markets back at Record highs

2008 markets crashed, 2010 Record highs..

2016 Economy begins to shrink warnings of a recession ... 2018 markets hit a record high.

1929 worst recession in history.. turns to the greates economic power in the world.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 08:47 PM   #59
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Karl and the first generation of Marxists made the biggest mistake by assuming that capitalism would just fall under its own weight, rather than be revived and retrenched every time there was an economic collapse. Marx thought it would be easy to just replace capitalism, but Lenin, Mao and the leaders of the Soviet Union and China soon discovered that the capitalist west was willing to join together to try to destroy communist systems wherever they arose...even witnessing all 19 combatants of WWI joining together in a common front to surround the Russian Federation and try to overthrow the provisional communist government and all the local soviet councils across the land. Marx should have realized how far capitalists are willing to go to maintain their system of control after witnessing the French Government inviting in the same Prussians who they were at war with...who overran eastern France, to come in and put down the Paris Revolt and destroy the Paris Commune.

So, I don't believe the forces of capitalism have or recognize a life cycle! They are intent of maintaining the dominance and control by capital markets until the very end, regardless of the consequences to everyone.
I don't know that any of that is true. Do you? And haven't you noticed that the specific tricks used to save capitalism in the past don't work the next time due to the evolution of the economy? In the past, when the average real median income went flat in the 1970s, the capitalists dragged out the credit card to promote so the public could keep up their living standard by going into debt. And it was a factor in the 2008 crash. Domestic debt is now higher than it was just prior to that crash and yet there has still been no recovery of wage growth to sustain the people and we're facing another crash soon.

Corporate profits were created on that credit card debt. Consumption was funded by it and corporate profits grew. Markets grew. Sales increased.

But today, they're running out of tricks. Consumption doesn't seem to be able to grow much more in the US and corporate growth is mostly in the form of stock price increases created by stock buy-backs to boost the value of the options given to the corporate elite, and by mergers to reduce redundancy. Oil companies obtain leases they don't drill because they don't want to increase oil production, but those leases are on the books as assets, and that boosts the value of the company and pushes the stock prices higher, again to increase the value of options and executive incomes.

So real value is in decline while corporate profits and stock prices are artificially and "fraudulently" puffed up. This does nothing for society or for the working class. It's just so much fluff that will go "poof" in the coming crash, which happens every 4 to 8 years typically.

I'd say capitalism is in real decline.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 09:58 PM   #60
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I don't know that any of that is true. Do you? And haven't you noticed that the specific tricks used to save capitalism in the past don't work the next time due to the evolution of the economy? In the past, when the average real median income went flat in the 1970s, the capitalists dragged out the credit card to promote so the public could keep up their living standard by going into debt. And it was a factor in the 2008 crash. Domestic debt is now higher than it was just prior to that crash and yet there has still been no recovery of wage growth to sustain the people and we're facing another crash soon.

Corporate profits were created on that credit card debt. Consumption was funded by it and corporate profits grew. Markets grew. Sales increased.

But today, they're running out of tricks. Consumption doesn't seem to be able to grow much more in the US and corporate growth is mostly in the form of stock price increases created by stock buy-backs to boost the value of the options given to the corporate elite, and by mergers to reduce redundancy. Oil companies obtain leases they don't drill because they don't want to increase oil production, but those leases are on the books as assets, and that boosts the value of the company and pushes the stock prices higher, again to increase the value of options and executive incomes.

So real value is in decline while corporate profits and stock prices are artificially and "fraudulently" puffed up. This does nothing for society or for the working class. It's just so much fluff that will go "poof" in the coming crash, which happens every 4 to 8 years typically.

I'd say capitalism is in real decline.
While it may be true that capitalism can reboot, it's fair to say every time it does wealth inequality grows. Reboots of diminishing efficacy and utility to the nation's citizens as a whole.

Real decline.

How laughable it is that some believe now is the time for arrogant and blustery projections of economic power. Maybe not.
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Last edited by imaginethat; March 11th, 2018 at 10:00 PM.
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