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Old March 11th, 2018, 10:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Kode View Post
I don't know that any of that is true. Do you? And haven't you noticed that the specific tricks used to save capitalism in the past don't work the next time due to the evolution of the economy? In the past, when the average real median income went flat in the 1970s, the capitalists dragged out the credit card to promote so the public could keep up their living standard by going into debt. And it was a factor in the 2008 crash. Domestic debt is now higher than it was just prior to that crash and yet there has still been no recovery of wage growth to sustain the people and we're facing another crash soon.

Corporate profits were created on that credit card debt. Consumption was funded by it and corporate profits grew. Markets grew. Sales increased.

But today, they're running out of tricks. Consumption doesn't seem to be able to grow much more in the US and corporate growth is mostly in the form of stock price increases created by stock buy-backs to boost the value of the options given to the corporate elite, and by mergers to reduce redundancy. Oil companies obtain leases they don't drill because they don't want to increase oil production, but those leases are on the books as assets, and that boosts the value of the company and pushes the stock prices higher, again to increase the value of options and executive incomes.

So real value is in decline while corporate profits and stock prices are artificially and "fraudulently" puffed up. This does nothing for society or for the working class. It's just so much fluff that will go "poof" in the coming crash, which happens every 4 to 8 years typically.

I'd say capitalism is in real decline.
Excellent analysis. Add to that wives going to work and home equity lines of credit. This has all been smoke and mirrors for awhile now. This is a situation where the tail is wagging the dog. No longer do Americans leverage capitalism. Capitalism is now leveraging Americans as the ignorant right wing decries “socialism”. You just cannot make this level of stupid up.
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Old March 12th, 2018, 04:20 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Gee, the world is so simple, isn't it?


The default argument is always the same: Communist! Socialist!

Let's see a show of hands. How many on DTT think the U.S. government owns all private property/has eliminated all private property??

How many on DTT think a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production??
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Old March 12th, 2018, 10:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
The default argument is always the same: Communist! Socialist!

Let's see a show of hands. How many on DTT think the U.S. government owns all private property/has eliminated all private property??

How many on DTT think a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production??
That's only in Canada, the UK, and the EU.
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Old March 12th, 2018, 10:29 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
The default argument is always the same: Communist! Socialist!

Let's see a show of hands. How many on DTT think the U.S. government owns all private property/has eliminated all private property??

How many on DTT think a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production??
Stop paying your property taxes, turn off all of your city utilities and don't pay them. Then tell them that you own your property and to fuck right off.

You pay the state for the privilege to live in your house. You pay the state for the privilege to produce any sort of income.


Quote:



rent

rent1
[rent]
noun
a payment made periodically by a tenant to a landlord in return for the use of land, a building, an apartment, an office, or other property.

a payment or series of payments made by a lessee to an owner in return for the use of machinery, equipment, etc.
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Old March 12th, 2018, 10:42 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Stop paying your property taxes, turn off all of your city utilities and don't pay them. Then tell them that you own your property and to fuck right off.

You pay the state for the privilege to live in your house. You pay the state for the privilege to produce any sort of income.
Yes, because roads, schools, sewer infrastructure and water infrastructure should all be FREE....Ayn Rand said so.....
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Old March 12th, 2018, 10:43 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
Yes, because roads, schools, sewer infrastructure and water infrastructure should all be FREE....Ayn Rand said so.....
all I have to say is T I N S A A F L

There is no such thing as a free lunch
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Old March 12th, 2018, 10:46 AM   #67
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all I have to say is T I N S A A F L

There is no such thing as a free lunch
Try telling that to comrade Sabcat.........
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Old March 12th, 2018, 10:49 AM   #68
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Try telling that to comrade Sabcat.........
I was agreeing with you my NAZI hat opponent,


I see something you say I disagree with, I say so

If I agreed with you I just affirmed that agreement.

By stating the first law of economics NOTHING IS FREE someone always pays.
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Old March 15th, 2018, 08:23 AM   #69
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Yes they live better until the economy of 1929 hits or the Economy of 2000 hits, or the Economy of 2008 or the economy of 1979 hits.

Socialist economies fail.

Capitalist Economies Reboot..
Well, you conveniently ignored just about everything in my post. My main points are:
a. socialist economies fail mostly because of hostile political and economic policies of global capitalism..which as noted, seem to be able to put their expensive, bloody wars and market conflicts aside when it comes to dealing with threats to the international capitalist order!
b. sure, capitalist economies "reboot" in your parlance. I made that point yesterday also...to the chagrin of an apparent Marxist here because so many Marxists and anarchists have erased the uncomfortable memory of Karl's optimism on Historical Materialism:
subheading
Determinist presumption towards a socialist future
In his analysis of the movement of history, Marx predicted the breakdown of capitalism, and the establishment in time of a communist society in which class-based human conflict would be overcome. The means of production would be held in the common ownership and used for the common good. In the mention of "human liberation" one should not neglect that, in the level of production, solely the working class is the most oppressed. But either way in the prediction of the future, one shall first know of the past (i.e. the establishment of capitalism and the transitional part of feudalism).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...cialist_future

Lenin himself had to be persuaded to get off his ass in the spring of 1917 and return to Russia by ranking members of his own Bolshevik Party and the Council of Soviets..who were demanding leadership to overthrow the Kerensky Provisional Government...who's Mensheviks had been claiming to be socialists, BUT were changing nothing except arresting the Czar and establishing parliamentary government. The breaking point was promising the French and British Governments that Russia would remain engaged in the War against Germany on the Eastern Front. The revolt against the Provisional Government was from all parts of Russia that did not benefit directly in the War! The new and rising industrial working class in the cities were on a general strike, the peasants in the countryside were gathering in revolt, and the enlisted men of the Army and even the Navy stationed in St. Petersburg were demanding revolution.

So, Lenin had just got back home from exile in the nick of time to be the leader of the October Revolution...a revolution that would have occurred without him if he didn't drop his notions that a successful revolution couldn't happen until the proletariat outnumbered the peasant farmers. Fortunately for him, Nikolai Lenin was more a man of pragmatism than theory, so he was able to put a government together and establish a working socialist economy...something that had not been clearly thought out by Marx and Engels and other theorists.

When I actually started exploring how Russia became the first socialist state...that gradually included others and became the Soviet Union, I was surprised at how much of this was a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants process! I believe this is because real information can be buried in plain sight when two competing sides don't want to tell the story! In this case, the former Soviet Union, in their writings and propaganda wanted to portray the Revolution as destiny and icons of Marxism to be almost superhuman heroes. While on our side, soon after the Revolution and especially after WWII when our Cold War propaganda went into full spin mode with the McCarthy Senate Hearings, US political and business propagandists decided they should portray communism as a disease...a malevolent force that was destined to consume the Soviet Union and must be stopped by the forces of capitalism and democracy before it invades and overruns all nations including America itself! While the actual truth was a revolution that started from the ground up in Russia, with political leaders who ran to the front of the parade and were able to harness the energy of the crowds on strike and marching in the streets...before it would dissipate and end up destroyed completely by outside forces that were determined to unite together to destroy all threats to global markets and the growth of capitalism throughout the world.

Now, back to that "reboot" of capitalism...the problem is that every time markets crash and reboots, capitalists have to extract more and more from nature in the form of cheap energy(wherever available...even if you have to go to war and seize it) and destruction of the commons...the collective ecosystems and the entire biosphere of the planet we all have to live in! The only thing that surprises me so far about the Democratic/liberal/'resistance' to Trump in the White House is how comparatively little they have to say about the Trunppublican deregulation of every federal government agency that was created to stop business and industry from completely destroying habitats, water sources and carbonizing the atmosphere itself. A few things pop up in the news about the bizarre cabinet postings of EPA, Energy, FDA etc., but the important point that Trump, his GOP allies and some Democrat allies also are representing the interests of the hellbent capitalists out to take what's left regardless of the costs of a degraded environment that will keep getting worse in the future.

As I see it now, the forces of liberalism keep backing down every time they are put under pressure to approve pipelines (check out Liberal Gov of Canada some time) fracking operations, mining in natural reserve lands etc., It's just more signs that capitalism becomes increasingly desperate as resources become increasingly rare and expensive. But, capitalism can only succeed by taking more...until the whole system collapses! The difference I have with most Marxists, assorted leftists and liberals, is how easy it's going to be to stop this crazy joyride before we all go speeding over a cliff!

Last edited by right to left; March 15th, 2018 at 08:40 AM.
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Old March 15th, 2018, 08:48 AM   #70
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Obama were Socialist no difference otherwise in this incident.
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