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Old October 18th, 2017, 03:52 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Asimov View Post
Well... lets take a closer look at these. 1) The Eloquent Peasant is a fictitious story that emerged during Egypt's 1st Intermediate Period, when the country was somewhat in a state of chaos. The moral of the story is civil justice, not unrequited kindness for kindness' sake, so it kind of misses the point.
2) The Hebrew Bible quote is from Leviticus, which was part of the Levitical Law given to Moses by... wait for it... Jehovah. That was my point to begin with. Even so, the rule was against taking matters of retribution into your own hands. It was given to avert lawlessness, not to invoke kindness. Christ simplified it to 2 basic rules: Love God, and Love one another. If you do that, he said, you will have fulfilled the whole purpose of law to begin with.
3) Zoroaster was a Persian philosopher who borrowed heavily from the Hebrew law, teaching a yin-and-yang type of cosmic retribution that befalls those who commit bad deeds. In essence, we should choose good deeds over bad ones so that the universe doesn't punish us, not out of love for our neighbor while expecting nothing in return. If we do that, he believed, we would move closer to being one with the creator, ie. God. So we come full circle to what I already said.
4) Siddhartha/Buddha taught 4 noble truths about ridding oneself of anger and misery by ridding oneself of all human desires. One does this by following the 8-fold path. In the end one can attain peace in the world and with the people around him. But Christ did not teach us to shed all personal desires, rather to change our desires to seek what is better and more helpful for those around us. It is not asceticism and self-immolation, but self-sacrifice for the benefit of others.
5) Confucius in his Analects was interested in civil order for the benefit of the state, not self-sacrifice.
6) Socrates of course didn't write anything. Plato did in his Dialogues. If you could give me the exact citation for this quote I would like to look at it more closely.

Bottom line, much of these are derived from a sense of responsibility to some form of higher power, often to avoid punishment or some form of Karma. Christ as far as I know is the only one who taught self-sacrifice for the benefit of others and not to get something in return, which has been twisted into a "golden rule", a sort of social grace that is not actually found in the Bible.

Nevertheless RNG I see your point.
What I question most in the above is your linking the golden rule to self-sacrifice. I don't see the connection at all.

But of interest, claiming that Socrates didn't "write" anything might be technically correct but most scholars would disagree that means he didn't say anything?

Using that logic would equally mean that Christ didn't say anything, just the apostles.

Just Google "Socrates' version of the golden rule. There are lots of hits. His version was in the negative form.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 04:32 PM   #82
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What I question most in the above is your linking the golden rule to self-sacrifice. I don't see the connection at all.
My point exactly. The golden rule is a watered down, westernized version of what Christ actually taught. But the source remains unchanged.

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But of interest, claiming that Socrates didn't "write" anything might be technically correct but most scholars would disagree that means he didn't say anything? Using that logic would equally mean that Christ didn't say anything, just the apostles. Just Google "Socrates' version of the golden rule. There are lots of hits. His version was in the negative form.
Yeah, I didn't mean to negate Socrates. He said a great many things, and Plato was savvy enough to put it into writing. As were the disciples of Christ. There was no intent (or ill-logic) meant, just clarity of a minor detail. I have a copy of Plato's Dialogues. They're extensive. I'll try the Google approach before I go back and start scanning all of the pages.

Thanks.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 04:43 PM   #83
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My point exactly. The golden rule is a watered down, westernized version of what Christ actually taught. But the source remains unchanged.



Yeah, I didn't mean to negate Socrates. He said a great many things, and Plato was savvy enough to put it into writing. As were the disciples of Christ. There was no intent (or ill-logic) meant, just clarity of a minor detail. I have a copy of Plato's Dialogues. They're extensive. I'll try the Google approach before I go back and start scanning all of the pages.

Thanks.
So in fact the golden rule isn't what Christ taught?
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Old October 18th, 2017, 06:31 PM   #84
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So in fact the golden rule isn't what Christ taught?
I believe in Western culture what is called the golden rule derives from that source.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 06:49 PM   #85
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I believe in Western culture what is called the golden rule derives from that source.
And I believe, based on the links I provided that that concept was around long before the dates of Christ, usually associated with religions of the times and places but not always.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:18 PM   #86
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The Golden Rule
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Old October 19th, 2017, 02:46 AM   #87
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Thank you Wikipedia, but the principle taught by Christ is not one of reciprocity. There is no payback. And none should be expected.

“But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be servant of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:43-45

Perhaps we're going different directions here. My point was one of divine origin and instruction, not a random unexplained product of human evolution. I think we're actually on the same page.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 03:26 AM   #88
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I simply want to know what you think about this whole religious thing.. I've been wanting to ask this to people but they're probably just going to accuse me for asking so maybe in this forum I can freely do so.
God is as real as my right split fingernail cuticle not to mention my horribly damaged right big toe. My right tibia feels like a saw blade but other than that I survived with only a big scar on my lower right leg. I refuse any medal even in a combat zone even though that is court martial offense under the UCMJ. I got paid for what I did and don't want frivolous medals or VA disability. Some call me stupid but I call it pride

Last edited by Twisted Sister; October 19th, 2017 at 03:29 AM.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 04:21 AM   #89
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Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, Golden Rule which is not in the Bible. Do unto others before they do unto you is in the Bible. Smite thine enemies before they smite you. Kill a commie for Christ!
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Old October 19th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #90
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Thank you Wikipedia, but the principle taught by Christ is not one of reciprocity. There is no payback. And none should be expected.

“But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be servant of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:43-45

Perhaps we're going different directions here. My point was one of divine origin and instruction, not a random unexplained product of human evolution. I think we're actually on the same page.
Well then, IMO that means that it is not the golden rule that he espoused then.
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