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View Poll Results: Is there a God
Yes 30 49.18%
Yes, I believe in many Gods 1 1.64%
Yes, I am God 4 6.56%
Yes, I believe in another supreme being 2 3.28%
I am open/Agnostic 9 14.75%
No, I believe in the Big Bang theory 9 14.75%
No, I believe in someting else 6 9.84%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 2nd, 2012, 08:51 AM   #1
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OK, The big question is there a God? My argument is that there is on several grounds.

1. The order of the universe, earth, our body etc. points to intelligence, order and love to exist beyond this planet.

2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.

3. More than 90% of the world believes in a God and have done so in history in parts of the world that had no contact with eachother.

4. The center, governing part of the brain that chooses has not been found, pointing to a possible spiritual existance.

5. The Bible the most read book, and one of the oldest history books speak of God and a Christ who performed miracles.

6. We have emotions, intelligence, moral conscience and a consciousness is it logical that this can come from unintelligent dead material?

7. God could have created the world by use of a "Big Bang", a very probable possibility.

8. Quantum Mechanics point to a ever changing universe where even atoms change and everything is connected, pointing to that nothing is impossible.

9. Believing in God gives happiness, hope, a purpose and desire the very essence of life.

10. I have felt a spiritual connection that I cannot explain or deny, but which I know came outside of me and which felt better than anything I have ever felt.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 09:13 AM   #2
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I think God exists.



Arguments over it can go on practically forever, with no real point.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 09:14 AM   #3
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All your points are reasonable. On # 10....



I've had experiences, sometimes with other people involved as witnesses, that form the core of my belief in God. All I've read, studied, discussed with others, all pale in comparison to personal experiences.



I often ask, when I meet people of strong faith and get to know them, have you ever had a spiritual experience that you cannot explain? The answers are almost universally, "No." I don't understand how a person can have strong faith in God without having had personal experiences. I don't know that I could do that, anyway.



But for me, that's never been an issue, because the very first of these experiences happened when I was around five years old. It was powerful, and direct.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 09:31 AM   #4
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2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 01:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 01:14 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Another question is where did Benjamin Thomsen's god get the materials to create the universe? As he said, nothing comes from nothing.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 01:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57' timestamp='1330726159' post='387098

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074']

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Another question is where did Benjamin Thomsen's god get the materials to create the universe?

[/quote]



From the Legos Company.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 01:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Why? Because you cannot even begin to formulate an answer?
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 01:34 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57' timestamp='1330726159' post='387098

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074']

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Why? Because you cannot even begin to formulate an answer?

[/quote]



I think because he doesn't like having the scab ripped off his double standard.

Apparently a universe has to come from somewhere but a god doesn't.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 01:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets' timestamp='1330726648' post='387103

[quote name='mytmouse57' timestamp='1330726159' post='387098']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074']

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Why? Because you cannot even begin to formulate an answer?

[/quote]



I think because he doesn't like having the scab ripped off his double standard.

Apparently a universe has to come from somewhere but a god doesn't.

[/quote]



The creator of this universe may have a creator, or not.



As atheists point out, not all questions can be answered at this time.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 02:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57' timestamp='1330726159' post='387098

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074']

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Why? Because you cannot even begin to formulate an answer?

[/quote]



No.

Because the answer should be self-evident. And the question itself is rather silly, because it rests upon the assumption that the Maker would be bound to the same parameters or limitations of the made. Sort of like saying an author could never have any existence beyond the stories he writes.



That which caused all would, by reason, itself be beyond the need for a cause. Such a being, force or entity would, again according to reason, be completely self sufficient, independent, utterly singular and unique, beyond the limitations of such factors as time or space.



Therefore, again, "what caused God" is essentially a stupid question that hinges upon an essentially non-sensical assumption.



It's actually a rather childish question, that dissipates with the application of only a little reason and contemplation.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 02:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets' timestamp='1330726648' post='387103

[quote name='mytmouse57' timestamp='1330726159' post='387098']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074']

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Why? Because you cannot even begin to formulate an answer?

[/quote]



No.

Because the answer should be self-evident. And the question itself is rather silly, because it rests upon the assumption that the Maker would be bound to the same parameters or limitations of the made. Sort of like saying an author could never have any existence beyond the stories he writes.



That which caused all would, by reason, itself be beyond the need for a cause. Such a being, force or entity would, again according to reason, be completely self sufficient, independent, utterly singular and unique, beyond the limitations of such factors as time or space.



Therefore, again, "what caused God" is essentially a stupid question that hinges upon an essentially non-sensical assumption.



It's actually a rather childish question, that dissipates with the application of only a little reason and contemplation.

[/quote]



Actually what it reveals is that your presumption that the universe requires a "creator" is rather childish, and that you have a double standard.

There is no more need for the universe to have a "creator" than there is for your hypothetical god to have one.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 03:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets' timestamp='1330726648' post='387103

[quote name='mytmouse57' timestamp='1330726159' post='387098']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1330713068' post='387074']

Quote:
2. Nothing comes from nothing and so everything must always have existed or being created from a source.


Where did your god come from?


That is, quite possibly, the stupidest question ever.


Why? Because you cannot even begin to formulate an answer?

[/quote]



No.

Because the answer should be self-evident. And the question itself is rather silly, because it rests upon the assumption that the Maker would be bound to the same parameters or limitations of the made. Sort of like saying an author could never have any existence beyond the stories he writes.



That which caused all would, by reason, itself be beyond the need for a cause. Such a being, force or entity would, again according to reason, be completely self sufficient, independent, utterly singular and unique, beyond the limitations of such factors as time or space.



Therefore, again, "what caused God" is essentially a stupid question that hinges upon an essentially non-sensical assumption.



It's actually a rather childish question, that dissipates with the application of only a little reason and contemplation.

[/quote]



Indeed. And, as atheists point out, one needn't have all the answers. They certainly haven't any.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 09:12 PM   #14
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To: Mytmouse. I can not think of an argument more important than if God exist weather he does or not, for it involves our creation, our existance and our destiny. How can you have a greater point than that?



To: Imaginethat. I agree with your points and appreciate you sharing your personal experience. I agree that personal experience is the most important when it comes to God. It took me much longer than you to get one, but my faith in the existance of God is as strong as my faith in the existance of Antartica. I think you have some great comments.



To Skrekk: With regard to where God came from. I don't think you read or understood my point 2.

For the answer is found there. As nothing comes from nothing, which both Quantum Mechanics points at, faith in God, and all the scientific evidences on this planet. Then God has always existed, so have you and I by the way, but just in different forms. There is no beginning and no end to the universe, it has always existed and will always exist. I believe that answers your other question on where God get the materials to create the universe. These materials has always existed, for atoms can be changed and influenced and atoms has always existed. What throws many of is that they see creation as creating something from nothing. But that is nonesence, even if we create sounds or art we do not create nothing from nothing. We merely organize something that has already existed into another form.



And by the way, my God is yours too I may have my own understanding, but I do not speak for God and claim to know everything about God. I merely know God exist.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 09:31 PM   #15
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To: Mytmouse. I can not think of an argument more important than if God exist weather he does or not, for it involves our creation, our existance and our destiny. How can you have a greater point than that?



To: Imaginethat. I agree with your points and appreciate you sharing your personal experience. I agree that personal experience is the most important when it comes to God. It took me much longer than you to get one, but my faith in the existance of God is as strong as my faith in the existance of Antartica. I think you have some great comments.



To Skrekk: With regard to where God came from. I don't think you read or understood my point 2.

For the answer is found there. As nothing comes from nothing, which both Quantum Mechanics points at, faith in God, and all the scientific evidences on this planet. Then God has always existed, so have you and I by the way, but just in different forms. There is no beginning and no end to the universe, it has always existed and will always exist. I believe that answers your other question on where God get the materials to create the universe. These materials has always existed, for atoms can be changed and influenced and atoms has always existed. What throws many of is that they see creation as creating something from nothing. But that is nonesence, even if we create sounds or art we do not create nothing from nothing. We merely organize something that has already existed into another form.



And by the way, my God is yours too I may have my own understanding, but I do not speak for God and claim to know everything about God. I merely know God exist.


Ben, at some point in the evolution of the universe, matter, atoms, subatomic particles, did not exist. Only energy existed. From that energy matter condensed. The physical universe as it exists now, once didn't exist at all except as an incomprehensibly dense concentration of energy. The question is: What is the origin of that energy? "Always existed" arguments don't and can't answer the question. "Cyclic universes," Big Bangs and Big Crunches, don't answer the question. Neither explains origins, nor can they.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 10:10 PM   #16
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Everything is made of atoms, http://www.solarscho..._are_atoms.aspx all matter is made of atoms. How do we know if there was a time without atoms? It makes no sense for there to have been such a time, for if there is a God, then God is matter and so is also made of atoms, and if there was a big bang, where did the matter come from if there was no atoms? Science today knows that there is no space there is "nothing", but also that atoms are mostly "empty" though this "emptiness" is full of energy. There is nothing to suggest that there ever was a time without neither atoms or energy. watch [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT50SV3W5K0[/media] on youtube. That the universe has changed does not point to it coming from nothing, rather it points to change or organization of matter as I stated shortly. Who says energy has an origin? Why does everything have to have a beginning? Is it too provoking for anyone to consider that there may be no beginning, and no end and that in fact energy ALWAYS existed? Maybe the reason why Big Bang does not explain origin is because it is based on faulty assumptions about a beginning, a thing from nothing, a intelligence from no intelligence, consciousness from no consciousness. But this makes no sense and is very unscientific for there is nothing to point an existance of "nothing" as a matter of fact such an argument contradict itself.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 10:15 AM   #17
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Everything is made of atoms, http://www.solarscho..._are_atoms.aspx all matter is made of atoms. How do we know if there was a time without atoms? It makes no sense for there to have been such a time, for if there is a God, then God is matter and so is also made of atoms, and if there was a big bang, where did the matter come from if there was no atoms? Science today knows that there is no space there is "nothing", but also that atoms are mostly "empty" though this "emptiness" is full of energy. There is nothing to suggest that there ever was a time without neither atoms or energy. watch [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT50SV3W5K0[/media] on youtube. That the universe has changed does not point to it coming from nothing, rather it points to change or organization of matter as I stated shortly. Who says energy has an origin? Why does everything have to have a beginning? Is it too provoking for anyone to consider that there may be no beginning, and no end and that in fact energy ALWAYS existed? Maybe the reason why Big Bang does not explain origin is because it is based on faulty assumptions about a beginning, a thing from nothing, a intelligence from no intelligence, consciousness from no consciousness. But this makes no sense and is very unscientific for there is nothing to point an existance of "nothing" as a matter of fact such an argument contradict itself.


I've watched "What the Bleep" several times. It portrays very interesting ideas, yet the academic rigor and veracity of some of the claims made are doubtful. That this universe, whether it's unique or a series of oscillations, once was pure energy is fully supported by astronomical observations which have confirmed certain predictions made by testable astrophysical theories.



Matter is energy, as predicted by E=mc2 and confirmed. Since you like wiki, and I do too especially when it comes to making esoteric science readable to a lay person, here's wiki's explanation:



Quote:

The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models the Universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density and huge temperatures and pressures and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10[sup]?37[/sup] seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the Universe grew exponentially.[sup][41][/sup] After inflation stopped, the Universe consisted of a quark–gluon plasma, as well as all other elementary particles.[sup][42][/sup] Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle–antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions. At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and antileptons—of the order of one part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present Universe.[sup][43][/sup]



The Universe continued to grow in size and fall in temperature, hence the typical energy of each particle was decreasing. Symmetry breaking phase transitions put the fundamental forces of physics and the parameters of elementary particles into their present form.[sup][44][/sup] After about 10[sup]?11[/sup] seconds, the picture becomes less speculative, since particle energies drop to values that can be attained in particle physics experiments. At about 10[sup]?6[/sup] seconds, quarks and gluons combined to form baryons such as protons and neutrons. The small excess of quarks over antiquarks led to a small excess of baryons over antibaryons. The temperature was now no longer high enough to create new proton–antiproton pairs (similarly for neutrons–antineutrons), so a mass annihilation immediately followed, leaving just one in 10[sup]10[/sup] of the original protons and neutrons, and none of their antiparticles. A similar process happened at about 1 second for electrons and positrons. After these annihilations, the remaining protons, neutrons and electrons were no longer moving relativistically and the energy density of the Universe was dominated by photons (with a minor contribution from neutrinos).



A few minutes into the expansion, when the temperature was about a billion (one thousand million; 10[sup]9[/sup]; SI prefix giga-) kelvin and the density was about that of air, neutrons combined with protons to form the Universe's deuterium and helium nuclei in a process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis.[sup][45][/sup] Most protons remained uncombined as hydrogen nuclei. As the Universe cooled, the rest mass energy density of matter came to gravitationally dominate that of the photon radiation. After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms (mostly hydrogen); hence the radiation decoupled from matter and continued through space largely unimpeded. This relic radiation is known as the cosmic microwave background radiation.[sup][46] [/sup]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang



Lots of links to follow.



Nothing in the BB theory predicts or assumes that the energy or the matter of the universe came from nothing. However, the BB theory, and other predictive astrophysical theories, make no comment on the origin of the energy.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 10:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Benjamin Thomsen View Post
To Skrekk: With regard to where God came from. I don't think you read or understood my point 2.

For the answer is found there. As nothing comes from nothing, which both Quantum Mechanics points at, faith in God, and all the scientific evidences on this planet. Then God has always existed, so have you and I by the way, but just in different forms. There is no beginning and no end to the universe, it has always existed and will always exist. I believe that answers your other question on where God get the materials to create the universe. These materials has always existed, for atoms can be changed and influenced and atoms has always existed. What throws many of is that they see creation as creating something from nothing. But that is nonesence, even if we create sounds or art we do not create nothing from nothing. We merely organize something that has already existed into another form.


I think you misunderstood my point. You can't simultaneously assert that the universe requires a "creator" and at the same time assert that your hypothetical creator doesn't itself require a creator. You're needlessly inserting a "creator" into the mix without justification, other than your psychological need to do so.



Secondly, quantum mechanics does not claim that "nothing comes from nothing".







Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Thomsen View Post
And by the way, my God is yours too I may have my own understanding, but I do not speak for God and claim to know everything about God. I merely know God exist.


No, your imaginary friend is your problem, not mine. I haven't had imaginary friends since I was about 4 years old.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 04:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Thomsen' timestamp='1330755156' post='387178

To Skrekk: With regard to where God came from. I don't think you read or understood my point 2.

For the answer is found there. As nothing comes from nothing, which both Quantum Mechanics points at, faith in God, and all the scientific evidences on this planet. Then God has always existed, so have you and I by the way, but just in different forms. There is no beginning and no end to the universe, it has always existed and will always exist. I believe that answers your other question on where God get the materials to create the universe. These materials has always existed, for atoms can be changed and influenced and atoms has always existed. What throws many of is that they see creation as creating something from nothing. But that is nonesence, even if we create sounds or art we do not create nothing from nothing. We merely organize something that has already existed into another form.


I think you misunderstood my point. You can't simultaneously assert that the universe requires a "creator" and at the same time assert that your hypothetical creator doesn't itself require a creator. You're needlessly inserting a "creator" into the mix without justification, other than your psychological need to do so.



Secondly, quantum mechanics does not claim that "nothing comes from nothing".







Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Thomsen View Post
And by the way, my God is yours too I may have my own understanding, but I do not speak for God and claim to know everything about God. I merely know God exist.


No, your imaginary friend is your problem, not mine. I haven't had imaginary friends since I was about 4 years old.


Oddly, the imaginary friend is your friend too.



If I were the imaginary friend, my love for you would be slight. However, the real imaginary friend's love is beyond human comprehension.
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Old March 4th, 2012, 08:59 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Thomsen' timestamp='1330755156' post='387178

To: Mytmouse. I can not think of an argument more important than if God exist weather he does or not, for it involves our creation, our existance and our destiny. How can you have a greater point than that?



To: Imaginethat. I agree with your points and appreciate you sharing your personal experience. I agree that personal experience is the most important when it comes to God. It took me much longer than you to get one, but my faith in the existance of God is as strong as my faith in the existance of Antartica. I think you have some great comments.



To Skrekk: With regard to where God came from. I don't think you read or understood my point 2.

For the answer is found there. As nothing comes from nothing, which both Quantum Mechanics points at, faith in God, and all the scientific evidences on this planet. Then God has always existed, so have you and I by the way, but just in different forms. There is no beginning and no end to the universe, it has always existed and will always exist. I believe that answers your other question on where God get the materials to create the universe. These materials has always existed, for atoms can be changed and influenced and atoms has always existed. What throws many of is that they see creation as creating something from nothing. But that is nonesence, even if we create sounds or art we do not create nothing from nothing. We merely organize something that has already existed into another form.



And by the way, my God is yours too I may have my own understanding, but I do not speak for God and claim to know everything about God. I merely know God exist.


Ben, at some point in the evolution of the universe, matter, atoms, subatomic particles, did not exist. Only energy existed. From that energy matter condensed. The physical universe as it exists now, once didn't exist at all except as an incomprehensibly dense concentration of energy. The question is: What is the origin of that energy? "Always existed" arguments don't and can't answer the question. "Cyclic universes," Big Bangs and Big Crunches, don't answer the question. Neither explains origins, nor can they.


But neither does the answer "God"...it doesn't explain anything, it doesn't answer any questions....it just puts the answer off onto something that there is absolutely no evidence for.
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