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View Poll Results: Who won?
Fayt 1 11.11%
TN 4 44.44%
They both won 1 11.11%
They both lost 2 22.22%
Neither 1 11.11%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 14th, 2015, 06:28 AM   #1
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Fayt vs. TN - Round 1

OK, this is the big event.

Here's how it will work.

Yours truly will be the moderator.

One question is to be discussed at a time.

Discussion will conclude when it's over.

Voting will then commence.

No one but Fayt and TN may post comments in this thread.

Comments are directed here.

If this works, and people like it, we'll have Round 2

******************************************

Round 1 question:

Since the adoption of the 16th Amendment in 1913, Americans have paid a federal income tax on earnings. Although the nation suffered the Great Depression, the US went on to become the world's economic powerhouse. During some of the best days, income tax rates were extremely high for top earners. Today the top income tax rate is much, much lower, and the nation has a $19 trillion debt.

Should income taxes be raised on the top income earners? Fayt, please begin.

Again, only Fayt and TN may post. Comments by others are directed here.
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Old November 14th, 2015, 11:22 AM   #2
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As a nation we have to ask ourselves, is our economy here to serve us or are we here to serve the economy? I'm arguing the former. Our economy is here to serve us. So to answer imaginethat's question, it's yes. The higher your income is, the more you should pay in individual taxes. There are tons of reason as for why. The 2 main reasons is to encourage certain behavior and to increase revenue.

If you made over $3 million in today's dollars between 1940s and 1980, you was taxed between 91-70%. Meaning people weren't so eager to pay themselves millions to billions of dollars as CEOs. Those wealthy people were inclined to invest in their company. Now you could make whatever you wanted, but you'd paid 91 to 70% on every dollar after you made around $3 million dollars.

That mean companies and their boards will vote to invest in new equipment, new workers, more factories, opining new markets and etc. They will invest in themselves instead of their CEOs.

Power and wealth should move upward in a society from the bottom up (from about the bottom 95% to the top 5% of Americans). This is mainly because there are more working class people in the bottom class than there are upper class people. Remember, about 70% of our GDP is consumer based. In a natural system, the people at the top will do what's in their own best interest by keeping their own wages high. The problem in our society is that wealth that's created largely by the bottom working class, stops collecting at the top.

So we need the redistribution of wealth and power so that wealth can get back down to the bottom and work its way back up to the top.

Think of it as water moving up a tree. The roots draws the water out of the soil and the water flows up the tree. The water then gathers in the leaves. The water then evaporate up into the air forming into clouds. Then the water rains back down and gets sucked back up into the roots again.

To the members watch this debate. What if the leaves decided that it's going to hang on to all this water?



That's my introduction.

Last edited by Fayt; November 14th, 2015 at 11:27 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2015, 04:30 PM   #3
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It's your turn TN.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 04:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Sister View Post
...
No one but Fayt and TN may post comments in this thread.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 04:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
As a nation we have to ask ourselves, is our economy here to serve us or are we here to serve the economy? I'm arguing the former. Our economy is here to serve us. So to answer imaginethat's question, it's yes. The higher your income is, the more you should pay in individual taxes. There are tons of reason as for why. The 2 main reasons is to encourage certain behavior and to increase revenue.

If you made over $3 million in today's dollars between 1940s and 1980, you was taxed between 91-70%. Meaning people weren't so eager to pay themselves millions to billions of dollars as CEOs. Those wealthy people were inclined to invest in their company. Now you could make whatever you wanted, but you'd paid 91 to 70% on every dollar after you made around $3 million dollars.

That mean companies and their boards will vote to invest in new equipment, new workers, more factories, opining new markets and etc. They will invest in themselves instead of their CEOs.

Power and wealth should move upward in a society from the bottom up (from about the bottom 95% to the top 5% of Americans). This is mainly because there are more working class people in the bottom class than there are upper class people. Remember, about 70% of our GDP is consumer based. In a natural system, the people at the top will do what's in their own best interest by keeping their own wages high. The problem in our society is that wealth that's created largely by the bottom working class, stops collecting at the top.

So we need the redistribution of wealth and power so that wealth can get back down to the bottom and work its way back up to the top.

Think of it as water moving up a tree. The roots draws the water out of the soil and the water flows up the tree. The water then gathers in the leaves. The water then evaporate up into the air forming into clouds. Then the water rains back down and gets sucked back up into the roots again.

To the members watch this debate. What if the leaves decided that it's going to hang on to all this water?



That's my introduction.
The economy is to serve us, you and I have a product to sell. it is our skill and knowledge, I am paid $47/hour for my knowledge, if I work off shifts I am paid an additional $3.50/hour, and $2.00 if it is a weekend. This is my corporation.

What I sell is the ability to perform statistical analysis of QC, to insure that the procedures are not trending, I am also paid for my ability to perform an interpret clinical laboratory results, and manage the dictionaries of the Laboratory Information System, I build test dictionaries, and interface analyzers with the system, set up acceptable range.

Now you have a skill that you sell to your employer that is your corporation, you and your employer have an agreed value. They say they will pay $X you say No, or you say okay or you attempt to negotiate an acceptable wage and the employer says yes nor no.

Now General Motors sell cars, they produce a car, that they hope I will buy and they set a price for that 1 to make a profit.

The economy serves us by allowing us sell your Knowledge and Skills and time to a company. Which sells a service that others wish to purchase or not.

If you cannot figure our it you strangle the corporation you strangle your access to a fair wage, now the corporation must understand that same with their employees.

The problem with the last decade that the US has created a unskilled work force. No skills, what does a person have to sell to earn money.

We are getting Medical Technologist with graduating college (4 years) and they cannot calculate Dose/KG, or % Saturations.

What I am seeing happening to our educational system over the last 6 or 7 years scares the heck out of me. People expect He I showed up pay me.. I cannot perform needed labor, just pay me.


Taxes 1940s taxation in of 1940s was easy. the US Economy had NO COMPETITION in manufacturing or industry.. DO YOU NOT FORGET the rest of the industrial world was Bombed, Asia, Europe, the US Industrial complex was the only game in town... Workers could demand more, Companies can charge more, to make up the difference in the tax burden.

Today the US industry is in competition with 25-30 OTHER industrial nations, we cannot tax at 90% any longer.. we are not the only game in town.


If I am the only Builder of ships,, I can charge what I can want for ships as long as people can afford it.

Now if there are 30 other ship builders that are willing to bid on the contract to build the ships... You cannot charge "All you can get" because someone else will build the same ship for less...

I am sorry, this is not the 1940s where the US is the only industrial nation with a economic base that was not bombed to hell.

The economy is actually a dance where the rhythm is market value and cost of production.

Market value goes up, wages and profits will expand, market value goes down the deflate.

Then you add in the Value of the currency.. We no longer pay $1800 for a new car (this is what I paid for my first new car)... the currency is only worth about 10% of the 1970 purchasing Value.

As technology becomes more prevelant the less value it has, because of increased supply or lessening demand.
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Last edited by TNVolunteer73; November 15th, 2015 at 05:01 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 06:42 AM   #6
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I'll start off by saying that I appreciate your participation and intro TN.

To rebuttal your comment that we could tax the wealthy at that high percentage in the 1940s because we bombed other industrialized countries is not only wrong, but doesn't take into account the decades after. It also doesn't take into account the other countries today that have high top marginal tax rates and are doing better than the U.S..

I say you're wrong because that time period doing and after WW2, our trade was only around 2 to 3% of our GDP. Also we had protectionist trade policies that kept our domestic industries from going offshore. We had an average tariff of around 30%. So it made it more expensive for companies to take their companies abroad and sell back into the U.S.. That's what kept jobs here in the U.S. for over 200 years. Other countries being bombed had almost nothing to do with our growth.

So again, not only your notion that we had a high top marginal tax rate due to WW2 is wrong, it doesn't take into account our protectionist trade policies and the decades after the 1940s.

So it just comes down to again why we had a high top marginal tax rate. It's again, to increase revenue and to encourage certain behavior. In the case behavior, it made the wealthy reinvest back into their companies and stop the flow of Hot Money.
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Last edited by Fayt; November 15th, 2015 at 01:30 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 10:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
I'll start off by saying that I appreciate your participation and intro TN.

To rebuttal your comment that we could tax the wealthy at that high percentage in the 1940s because we bombed other industrialized county is not only wrong, but doesn't take into account the decades after. It also doesn't take into account the other countries today that have high top marginal tax rates and are doing better than the U.S..

I say you're wrong because that time period doing and after WW2, our trade was only around 2 to 3% of our GDP. Also we had protectionist trade polices that kept our domestic industries from going offshore. We had an average tariff of around 30%. So it made it more expensive for companies to take their companies abroad and sell back into the U.S.. That's what kept jobs here in the U.S. for over 200 years. Other countries being bombed had almost nothing to do with our growth.



So again, not only your notion that we had a high top marginal tax rate due to WW2 is wrong, it doesn't take into account our protectionist trade polices and the decades after the 1940s.

So it just comes down to again why we had a high top marginal tax rate. It's again, to increase revenue and to encourage certain behavior. In the case behavior, it made the wealthy reinvest back into their companies and stop the flow of Hot Money.
We did not bomb them, We bombed 3 of them.. you really are historically challenged. You just lost the debate with that statement alone.

The World was bombed into oblivion a world at war.

we were never bombed only our industrial complex survived the war unscathed.

Let me ask you this you are going to buy a Kitchen Aid Mixer.

Do you buy it at Sears for 290.00 or do you Buy it at Walmart for 164 dollars Same mixer same color same model.

I mean I like Sears, it is a great company, But the name does not warrant 12 dollars over payment.

So where am I going to invest my money, a place where the 90% of the return is going to be eaten up in taxes, And where I will be Tax again on my return when the profits are given to the owner.

Or am I going to invest were 40% of the return is going to be eaten in taxes.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 10:18 AM   #8
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Fayt, you forget Taxes are a cost of production. Thus increase the cost of goods, Taxes hurt the poor more than the wealthy and the working class gets killed because they must bear the burden of the tax.

1. increase cost
2. Their taxes
3. Lost retirement earnings.

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Old November 15th, 2015, 06:31 PM   #9
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It's the debate moderator.....

How long do you want to go on before moving to Round 2?
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Old November 15th, 2015, 07:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
I'll start off by saying that I appreciate your participation and intro TN.

To rebuttal your comment that we could tax the wealthy at that high percentage in the 1940s because we bombed other industrialized countries is not only wrong, but doesn't take into account the decades after. It also doesn't take into account the other countries today that have high top marginal tax rates and are doing better than the U.S..

I say you're wrong because that time period doing and after WW2, our trade was only around 2 to 3% of our GDP. Also we had protectionist trade policies that kept our domestic industries from going offshore. We had an average tariff of around 30%. So it made it more expensive for companies to take their companies abroad and sell back into the U.S.. That's what kept jobs here in the U.S. for over 200 years. Other countries being bombed had almost nothing to do with our growth.

So again, not only your notion that we had a high top marginal tax rate due to WW2 is wrong, it doesn't take into account our protectionist trade policies and the decades after the 1940s.

So it just comes down to again why we had a high top marginal tax rate. It's again, to increase revenue and to encourage certain behavior. In the case behavior, it made the wealthy reinvest back into their companies and stop the flow of Hot Money.
You think it is incorrect why is the population in the south Growing,

Why is the TN Valley the region that produces more automobiles than any region in the nation. and one of the greatest in the world.

Why is NY Michigan losing house seats while southern states is gaining the seats, Why is the south becoming the Manufacturing capital of the US.

Why is it that a person in the South making 25-30K live better then people making 60-80K in the Blue north?

out of control T A X A T I O N. is the cornerstone of the downfall of an economy

It begins a feed back loop of prices and wage increases, then the wages find a conduit to be lowered followed by manufacturing flight.
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Last edited by TNVolunteer73; November 15th, 2015 at 08:02 PM.
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