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View Poll Results: The Self-Contradictory Nature of Both the Left and Right
Self-Contradictory 6 75.00%
Self-Consistent 0 0%
Other 2 25.00%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 11th, 2018, 06:21 AM   #1
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The Self-Contradictory Nature of Both the Left and Right

The Self-Contradictory Nature of Both the Left and Right

A huge problem with the typical talk surrounding the Left-Right dynamic is that the many of the positions/views on both sides are self-contradictory and often highly out of step with theory.

A few examples I have previously given about this from the Left are "The Crisis of Democracy", Plato's "Republic", champions of free speech while perpetrating student "protests" designed to shut-down Free Speech, champions of Science while promoting 63+ genders pseudo-science, champions of anti-discrimination/anti-prejudice while simultaneously promoting positions and values that inherently are discriminatory (e.g. Affirmative Action, new laws/rules regarding M-F dynamics in court, M-F dynamics in rape/sexual assault and elsewhere, ect.) ect. ect.

From the Right, there are also a plethora of self-contradictory positions such as Small Government but massive military with a global presence, Nationalism and sovereignty are of chief importance but we should perpetually interfere with the affairs of other Nations, Lazefaire Capitalism in theory should reign supreme however promote all sorts of Mixed Economy positions, "Family values" are most important but most parents are encouraged to physically, emotionally, psychologically, educationally, ect. abuse their children, ect. ect.

Links to discussion concerning "The Crisis of Democracy", Plato's "Republic" here:

(A) http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/ Crisis ofDemocracy
(B ) http://www.createdebate.com/debate/s...readmyargument (Look for my posts in the discussion)
(C) http://www.createdebate.com/debate/s...lyJust_Society

Thoughts?
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Old March 1st, 2018, 07:59 PM   #2
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More like self-deluded.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 11:30 AM   #3
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I believe it comes down to collectivist vs individualist imo.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 01:39 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by guy39 View Post
I believe it comes down to collectivist vs individualist imo.
@guy

Would you be willing to elaborate on your position more?

Personaly, I view it as a false dichitomy--there are ways in which we need to collaborate with each other as a community/group and other ways in which we must stand or fall independently.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 03:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
The Self-Contradictory Nature of Both the Left and Right

A huge problem with the typical talk surrounding the Left-Right dynamic is that the many of the positions/views on both sides are self-contradictory and often highly out of step with theory.

A few examples I have previously given about this from the Left are "The Crisis of Democracy", Plato's "Republic", champions of free speech while perpetrating student "protests" designed to shut-down Free Speech, champions of Science while promoting 63+ genders pseudo-science, champions of anti-discrimination/anti-prejudice while simultaneously promoting positions and values that inherently are discriminatory (e.g. Affirmative Action, new laws/rules regarding M-F dynamics in court, M-F dynamics in rape/sexual assault and elsewhere, ect.) ect. ect.

From the Right, there are also a plethora of self-contradictory positions such as Small Government but massive military with a global presence, Nationalism and sovereignty are of chief importance but we should perpetually interfere with the affairs of other Nations, Lazefaire Capitalism in theory should reign supreme however promote all sorts of Mixed Economy positions, "Family values" are most important but most parents are encouraged to physically, emotionally, psychologically, educationally, ect. abuse their children, ect. ect.

Links to discussion concerning "The Crisis of Democracy", Plato's "Republic" here:

(A) | CreateDebate Crisis ofDemocracy
(B ) | CreateDebate (Look for my posts in the discussion)
(C) | CreateDebate

Thoughts?
Spot on!
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 08:08 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
The Self-Contradictory Nature of Both the Left and Right

A huge problem with the typical talk surrounding the Left-Right dynamic is that the many of the positions/views on both sides are self-contradictory and often highly out of step with theory.
Theory is wonderful, provided it has been substantiated as law. Without devolving into the endless circle of debate commonly seen on science forums, let's for the sake of argument stipulate "theory" as a "good working model" that has not yet withstood the test of time, whereas "law" comes next. Thus, idea, hypothesis, theory, law.

With that in mind, while theory is better than an untested hypothesis, it remains in the realm of consensus rather than established fact. For theories like both special and general relativity, they are very widely and strongly accepted, even though most people have never directly observed them or really even understand them. For theories like quantum theory, they're also widely accepted, but much less strongly, primarily because most people simply say, "Huh?" when you mention the difference between up, down, and charm.

Game theory is not very widely accepted as actual, provable solutions according to game theory are often counter-intuitive.

Thus, when you state, "many of the positions/views on both sides are self-contradictory and often highly out of step with theory," the only logical response would be, "Such as?" Whether or not that statement is true depends entirely on which of hundreds, if not thousands, of "theories" you have in mind.

For example, most people have seen the economic supply and demand curves, but cannot explain them. Most people would also be unable to explain why they don't even apply to prestige products, which is why they can't understand why there's a sweet spot price range below which demand actually drops, or why companies prices some goods and services at the higher end of the price range even that might only result in a third of potential sales.

For example, what''s missing from this curve? Can you tell me?



Whether or not you know the answer is immaterial.

One problem is that more than 90% of the members in Congress either haven't the slightest clue or they think they do but they're wrong.

Another problem is that most voters have no way of discerning the presence of this skill in those who're seeking election, yet its an absolutely vital requirement for elected officials who are managing a country's budget. Countries that work within this framework tend to have very small government budgets on a per-capita basis. Sadly, the U.S. is not among them.

Quote:
A few examples I have previously given about this from the Left are "The Crisis of Democracy", Plato's "Republic", champions of free speech while perpetrating student "protests" designed to shut-down Free Speech
Agreed. That's pretty absurd.

Quote:
champions of Science while promoting 63+ genders pseudo-science
Before long, we'll wind up with 2 biological genders, 6 biological mutations, and millions of micro-genders -- one for everyone who feels misunderstood.

Quote:
champions of anti-discrimination/anti-prejudice while simultaneously promoting positions and values that inherently are discriminatory (e.g. Affirmative Action, new laws/rules regarding M-F dynamics in court, M-F dynamics in rape/sexual assault and elsewhere, ect.) ect. ect.
Absurd, isn't it?

Quote:
From the Right, there are also a plethora of self-contradictory positions such as Small Government but massive military with a global presence
Try this on for size:

The optimal size of a nation's government depends largely on the nature of the governed.

The optimal size of a nation's military depends largely on both the nature of other governments as well as the perceived value of the target nation.

Ergo, countries can fall along the entire continuum of small to large government as well as along the entire continuum of small to large military. Bottom line, "it depends."

Quote:
Nationalism and sovereignty are of chief importance but we should perpetually interfere with the affairs of other Nations
I believe some areas of our government are endowed with entirely too many obsessive-compulsive types, whereas other areas are overridden with power players. Neither one makes for very good government.

Quote:
Lazefaire Capitalism in theory should reign supreme however promote all sorts of Mixed Economy positions
If only people were perfect and none suffered from counterproductive personality disorders! Alas, our system appears to favor such folks either rising to power or rising to high levels under the employ of those who rise to power.

Quote:
"Family values" are most important but most parents are encouraged to physically, emotionally, psychologically, educationally, ect. abuse their children, ect. ect.
How so? Not the way I was raised.

Quote:
Links to discussion concerning "The Crisis of Democracy", Plato's "Republic" here:

(A) | CreateDebate Crisis ofDemocracy
(B ) | CreateDebate (Look for my posts in the discussion)
(C) | CreateDebate

Thoughts?
I wanted to comment extensively, but I'm seeing "Sorry, no such debate exists" at all three links.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 08:17 PM   #7
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The OP is full of stereotypes, opinions and general bullshit........

Whatever.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 09:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
@guy

Would you be willing to elaborate on your position more?

Personaly, I view it as a false dichitomy--there are ways in which we need to collaborate with each other as a community/group and other ways in which we must stand or fall independently.
There may be ways to do a lot of things, but I personally believe that it does come down to two different groups. One being collectivists and the other being individualists.

I think that there is basic ways of understanding the relationship between individuals in a group.One way is individualism, which would be an individual acting on his or her own, making choices, and interacting with the rest of the group as individuals. Collectivism views the group as the primary entity, with the individuals being lost. Which to me would explain the liberal collectivist thought process of trying to save everyone by forcing them to agree to their ideology.

Individualism can be whether the individual is different from everyone else, or maybe makes up his own mind. But in the individualist-collectivist sense, individualism means that the individual is a separate entity, making choices, having own thoughts and idea's, and bearing responsibility for his choices.

Collectivism sees the group as the important element with individuals just members of the group. The group has values and idea's somehow different from those of the individual members. Instead of judging the group as a bunch of individuals, it treats the group as a whole, and the individuals are just members of the group.

Their are legitimate reasons for collectivism. Shared knowledge. What can you learn from other people.So you could argue that no one is an individual. Also, when coming up with an idea in a group, there's usually an exchange. So an idea becomes something produced with more than one persons thoughts. That would become a group decision.I would contend that you are a product of your culture. If you're raised in a Islamic home, you will Probably be a follower of Islam.

Individualists see it much differently.You have to be able to comprehend what you learn regardless of the source. A group of people might have used a series of ideas to get to the invention but the ideas came from each individual. Just because you grew up in a certain culture, it is up to you as the individual to choose to accept or reject that culture.

Collectivism also is the mob mentality. We see this today from the left. You do not think or decide for yourself, instead you go with the wishes of your group. I can sit here and point out parrot after parrot on DTT that is prime examples of this. The problem with this is once you see this behavior how can you not point out that they have become a collective.

There are a number of problems with collectivism. A collective becomes more important than the individuals which is what makes up the collective and sacrifices for the collective. It creates its own false value and takes away the individuals self interest.

Racism is a collective thought process as well. It is generally a view that people with the same skin color or race our guilty as a group by what certain individuals within that group do. This is a collectivist mentality. By not being able to separate the crimes of a black person from all black people you have racism. This is another example of why collectivists are rather disturbing as a group.

These two groups have worked together before. We have heard the stories of the explorers. These were people who went out on their own to discover new worlds and find new ways. Either in the traditional European sense or even in native tribes members would strike out and find new grounds and places. Its the individualists of these groups who use their own self thought and determination to do this. The collectivists come after them. They are the ones who most likely establish settlements and laws and what many would call civilization. But, traditionally they are tempered by the rule of individualists. Unfortunately today that is not the case. Collectivists feel they should be in charge and its their duty to assimilate and force those who disagree with their mob rule to join them.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 09:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyzza View Post
The OP is full of stereotypes, opinions and general bullshit........

Whatever.
Are you capable of participating in a discussion other than screaming bullshit or some other rhetoric based on whatever you believe the politics of the person you are talking to is?
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 01:38 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Lyzza View Post
The OP is full of stereotypes, opinions and general bullshit........

Whatever.
@Lyzaa

Care to make an argument?

Edit: @RNG--I would be interested to hear your thoughts as well, if you are would like to share
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Last edited by xMathFanx; March 3rd, 2018 at 01:40 AM.
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