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Old December 12th, 2011, 06:29 PM   #1
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my 2 children were in their schools end of year concert last night. as a doting parent i found the out of key singing, cheesy acting and crappy props delightful.



the acts included, among others, jailhouse rock, a wierd redoing of the hare and the tortoise, and 3 verses of "away in a manger".



being aussies, none of us got too fussed, it was getting late and the beer was cold, but it struck me what might have happened if this had been in america. or if it could have happened at all.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 06:32 AM   #2
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Hot Dragon, that's kind of cool. In Australia, do they listen to traditional Christmas music? I take it that the songs like "White Christmas", "Winter Wonderland", don't really exist down under, does it?



And by your post about beer, you must be drinking Foster's. True?
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Old December 13th, 2011, 04:19 PM   #3
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strangely we have many of the same carols as you. there are a few uniquely australian carols, and australianised versions of traditional ones. however, there are polystyrene snowmen everywhere, shops spray frosting on the windows and hang plastic icicles outside, its wierd given that it NEVER snows and its the beginning of summer.



and hardly anyone in australia drinks fosters. most bottle shops dont bother to stock it, there are much better beers. and wine. wine is starting to take over as australias staple drink.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 07:07 AM   #4
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strangely we have many of the same carols as you. there are a few uniquely australian carols, and australianised versions of traditional ones. however, there are polystyrene snowmen everywhere, shops spray frosting on the windows and hang plastic icicles outside, its weird given that it NEVER snows and its the beginning of summer.



and hardly anyone in australia drinks fosters. most bottle shops dont bother to stock it, there are much better beers. and wine. wine is starting to take over as australias staple drink.


Interesting that Australia "adopted", should I say, the same carols from the USA and Europe, for that matter.



I've seen some Australian wines here in Southern California. Foster's gets advertised a lot here. Just 20-second commercials
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Old December 14th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #5
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much of australian culture has grown out of english culture, for a long time we were an english colony, we have a shared history, language, even genetics. this has changed in the last couple of generations especially, to the point where australia really has its own culture now. but that culture has its roots.



i was in europe some years ago and fosters was everywhere. bizarre, given that most english beers are far superior to fosters. most beers are. aussie wine is good. if you have the chance, any red from the Barossa Valley is excellent, the Barossa doesnt produce any bad wine.
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Old February 11th, 2012, 08:54 PM   #6
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I think your last comment was right in that it probably would not happen at all. Our education system here is adamantly antiChristian. Many have bought into the "Separation of Church and State" myth. When there is nothing at all in the constitution that even implies such a belief.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 09:37 AM   #7
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We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.



The land of the free and the home of the brave is dead.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 10:10 AM   #8
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We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.


Correct, unless all other faiths are permitted such exhibits as well and there's no preference given one over the other. It's generally improper for public schools to be putting up religious displays.



You are free however to do that in your home and your church.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Perkins' timestamp='1329071863' post='382581

We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.


Correct, unless all other faiths are permitted such exhibits as well and there's no preference given one over the other. It's generally improper for public schools to be putting up religious displays.



You are free however to do that in your home and your church.


Works both ways, you are free to practice your atheism anywhere. However, you want your religion to dominate, so you obstruct the practice of religions other than your own.



Your kind of atheist is subtle. You don't preach your religion from pulpits. You preach your atheistic religion from the courts.



Your religion is more palatable than some that teach eternal hell for everyone who disagrees with their religion. That is a plus for your atheistic religion, though the "tolerance" that you claim characterizes your practice of your religion is false, and hypocritical.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1329073824' post='382589

[quote name='Tony Perkins' timestamp='1329071863' post='382581']

We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.


Correct, unless all other faiths are permitted such exhibits as well and there's no preference given one over the other. It's generally improper for public schools to be putting up religious displays.



You are free however to do that in your home and your church.


Works both ways, you are free to practice your atheism anywhere. However, you want your religion to dominate, so you obstruct the practice of religions other than your own.



Your kind of atheist is subtle. You don't preach your religion from pulpits. You preach your atheistic religion from the courts.



Your religion is more palatable than some that teach eternal hell for everyone who disagrees with their religion. That is a plus for your atheistic religion, though the "tolerance" that you claim characterizes your practice of your religion is false, and hypocritical.

[/quote]



I suggest you take a look at the video at the top of the thread as you've confused government silence on religion with an endorsement of atheism, a symptom of the normative Christianity you were reared in. The video correctly shows what a government endorsement of atheism would actually be like.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329075522' post='382600

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1329073824' post='382589']

[quote name='Tony Perkins' timestamp='1329071863' post='382581']

We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.


Correct, unless all other faiths are permitted such exhibits as well and there's no preference given one over the other. It's generally improper for public schools to be putting up religious displays.



You are free however to do that in your home and your church.


Works both ways, you are free to practice your atheism anywhere. However, you want your religion to dominate, so you obstruct the practice of religions other than your own.



Your kind of atheist is subtle. You don't preach your religion from pulpits. You preach your atheistic religion from the courts.



Your religion is more palatable than some that teach eternal hell for everyone who disagrees with their religion. That is a plus for your atheistic religion, though the "tolerance" that you claim characterizes your practice of your religion is false, and hypocritical.

[/quote]



I suggest you take a look at the video at the top of the thread as you've confused government silence on religion with an endorsement of atheism, a symptom of the normative Christianity you were reared in. The video correctly shows what a government endorsement of atheism would actually be like.

[/quote]



I watched the video. I suggest it bears more resemblance to reality than evidently you realize or are willing to admit.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1329094162' post='382647

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329075522' post='382600']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1329073824' post='382589']

[quote name='Tony Perkins' timestamp='1329071863' post='382581']

We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.


Correct, unless all other faiths are permitted such exhibits as well and there's no preference given one over the other. It's generally improper for public schools to be putting up religious displays.



You are free however to do that in your home and your church.


Works both ways, you are free to practice your atheism anywhere. However, you want your religion to dominate, so you obstruct the practice of religions other than your own.



Your kind of atheist is subtle. You don't preach your religion from pulpits. You preach your atheistic religion from the courts.



Your religion is more palatable than some that teach eternal hell for everyone who disagrees with their religion. That is a plus for your atheistic religion, though the "tolerance" that you claim characterizes your practice of your religion is false, and hypocritical.

[/quote]



I suggest you take a look at the video at the top of the thread as you've confused government silence on religion with an endorsement of atheism, a symptom of the normative Christianity you were reared in. The video correctly shows what a government endorsement of atheism would actually be like.

[/quote]



I watched the video. I suggest it bears more resemblance to reality than evidently you realize or are willing to admit.

[/quote]



It bears an exact semblance to reality in terms of what Christians have done historically and do even today. But I challenge you to find a single instance of what the video shows in regards to atheism.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329096649' post='382651

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1329094162' post='382647']

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329075522' post='382600']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1329073824' post='382589']

[quote name='Tony Perkins' timestamp='1329071863' post='382581']

We are not allowed to have a nativity scene in our Govt indoctrination centers in the USA.


Correct, unless all other faiths are permitted such exhibits as well and there's no preference given one over the other. It's generally improper for public schools to be putting up religious displays.



You are free however to do that in your home and your church.


Works both ways, you are free to practice your atheism anywhere. However, you want your religion to dominate, so you obstruct the practice of religions other than your own.



Your kind of atheist is subtle. You don't preach your religion from pulpits. You preach your atheistic religion from the courts.



Your religion is more palatable than some that teach eternal hell for everyone who disagrees with their religion. That is a plus for your atheistic religion, though the "tolerance" that you claim characterizes your practice of your religion is false, and hypocritical.

[/quote]



I suggest you take a look at the video at the top of the thread as you've confused government silence on religion with an endorsement of atheism, a symptom of the normative Christianity you were reared in. The video correctly shows what a government endorsement of atheism would actually be like.

[/quote]



I watched the video. I suggest it bears more resemblance to reality than evidently you realize or are willing to admit.

[/quote]



It bears an exact semblance to reality in terms of what Christians have done historically and do even today. But I challenge you to find a single instance of what the video shows in regards to atheism.

[/quote]



LOL



Just give you guys enough power, and enough time, then we'll talk.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 09:55 PM   #14
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of course, all atheists are the same arent they, IT?



it has been religious organisations that have pursued matters through the courts far more than atheists, presenting the same tired and defeated arguments again and again under different guises, but the courts have seen through the deception. all atheists want to do is keep teaching honest. if you want to talk about religion, do so by all means. but do it fairly, give all religions equal time and equal criticism and keep that discussion in the religious studies classroom. leave science class for science.



i have never heard of any atheist try and force schools to teach "There is No God". i invite you to point me to an occasion when someone has.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #15
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of course, all atheists are the same arent they, IT?



it has been religious organisations that have pursued matters through the courts far more than atheists, presenting the same tired and defeated arguments again and again under different guises, but the courts have seen through the deception. all atheists want to do is keep teaching honest. if you want to talk about religion, do so by all means. but do it fairly, give all religions equal time and equal criticism and keep that discussion in the religious studies classroom. leave science class for science.



i have never heard of any atheist try and force schools to teach "There is No God". i invite you to point me to an occasion when someone has.


Hey, the Christians were thrown to the lions ... until they got tight with the Roman government, and then they kicked some ass. Big Time.



No, not all atheists, just like the abuses you attribute to theists ... not all theists either.
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Old February 13th, 2012, 06:41 AM   #16
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IT, we're all still breathlessly waiting to hear your example of a public school teaching that there are no gods.



Even a school which posted a prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster would suffice.
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Old February 13th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #17
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IT, we're all still breathlessly waiting to hear your example of a public school teaching that there are no gods.



Even a school which posted a prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster would suffice.


"We," who's "we"?



Here's some good news for you.



Quote:
Bloomberg evicts churches from using public schools, but allows labor unions



by Jason Mattera

02/10/2012



Should religious institutions be able to rent public property just like any other community group?



If you’re New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the answer is a resounding no, a decision that has angered local communities and is poised to kick out dozens churches from meeting in New York City public schools even though other groups, including labor unions, are granted full access.



“Houses of worship throughout the city consider this policy to be nothing short of discrimination, and we will make that known,” said Fernando Cabrera, a Democratic city councilman representing the Bronx. “Evicting [churches] hurts people and neighborhoods by denying them the social and spiritual services they desperately need, which in my district includes tutoring services, soup kitchens and more,” he added.



At issue is whether or not allowing religious organizations access to public schools during off-hours is an “endorsement” of that particular religion’s belief system. For the past 10 years an injunction issued by the U.S. District Court of New York said that churches can, in fact, rent out school facilities just like any other group. But a recent ruling by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals defied the lower court’s ruling, agreeing with the Department of Education that granting churches equal access to vacant government buildings amounts to a subsidy of religion.



“When worship services are performed in a place, the nature of the site changes. The site is no longer simply a room in a school being used temporarily for some activity,” the majority opinion stated. “The church has made the school the place where it performs its rites, and might well appear to have established itself there. The place has, at least for a time, become the church.”



Such a ruling adheres to an “extreme version of the establishment clause and separation of church and state,” Jordan Lorence, a senior counsel with the Alliance Defense Fund, the legal firm representing the local churches, told HUMAN EVENTS. “It’s hard for the bureaucrats and judges to grasp the difference between government sponsored religion and government accommodating everybody to use an empty building.”


http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=49428



Step by step, inch by inch....
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Old February 13th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #18
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Why, you skrekk, could make this atheist argument to forward your agenda of freedom from religion!!



This comment:



Quote:
"It gives kids the impression that one religious group is favored over others and risks creating a climate of intolerance, bigotry and animosity that has no place in our public schools," the NYCLU said in a release sent out this morning.



..."The proposed state legislation...essentially requires our schools to subsidize churches and privileges the Christian church over other religions, which erodes everyone's religious freedom," NYCLU Executive Director Donna Lieberman said in the release.


I think the NYCLU has been reading DTT, because that sounds like they plagiarized you.



Step by step, inch by inch....



Quote:
NYCLU: Allowing Church Worship In Public Schools Violates Religious Freedom



By Sam Levin Thu., Feb. 2 2012 at 1:00 PM



The fight to block churches from using public school space got support today from the New York Civil Liberties Union, which says the policy is a threat to religious freedom.



The Civil Liberties Union is arguing in testimony today that these kinds of arrangements between religious organizations and the Dept. of Education turn schools into churches every Sunday, violating the principle of separation of church and state. This latest move pits them against a group of loud protestors made up of electeds and religious leaders, who have been rallying to keep worship services inside school buildings.

In this case, the NYCLU is going up against a handful of pols whose views are typically aligned with those of the civil rights group.




The City Council is considering a resolution in support of proposed state legislation that would allow school districts to permit worship services in public school buildings. This legislation is a push against a Court of Appeals ruling last year that said the city could bar religious worship in schools, because it appears to promote a particular faith.



The issue is heating up as the Feb. 12th deadline for churches to stop using school space approaches.



Churches and their supporters argue that they've used the space for a long time and will have nowhere else to go if they are evicted (The mayor has repeatedly said that the city must strictly support the separation of church and state).



The NYCLU has a few key arguments to support its claim that the policy violates religious freedom. It invites discrimination since school buildings are not equally available to all faiths -- Christian churches that worship on Sunday can better take advantage of the space, the group argues.



"It gives kids the impression that one religious group is favored over others and risks creating a climate of intolerance, bigotry and animosity that has no place in our public schools," the NYCLU said in a release sent out this morning.



The group also argues that the city is essentially paying for religious services since churches only pay a nominal fee for janitorial services -- far below fair market rents. The NYCLU also notes that the practice sometimes converts public school buildings into actual neighborhood churches, since services can take up the largest rooms often for the whole day.



"The proposed state legislation...essentially requires our schools to subsidize churches and privileges the Christian church over other religions, which erodes everyone's religious freedom," NYCLU Executive Director Donna Lieberman said in the release. The group is presenting testimony today before the New York City Council's Education Committee.



Runnin' Scared caught up this morning with City Council members Ydanis Rodriguez and Jumaane Williams who have come out in support of the churches (The two are big Occupy Wall Street supporters and have stood with the NYCLU on issues regarding the NYPD).



"I respect NYCLU a great deal. Sometimes you disagree with your friends and family. I think this is just a case of that," Williams told Runnin Scared on the steps of City Hall after a press conference on the mayor's budget. "I think we should allow all community groups to access the resources of the city. I think that saying we can allow all community groups, except religious ones is basically against the very argument that they're making. If they were exclusionary, it'd be one thing. If they have cases of them preventing people from coming in who aren't part of that religion or church, that's another thing."



Rodriguez told us it just doesn't make sense to block these churches that have been in the schools for so long and pay the city for access to the space.



"What I know is that more than 50 of the largest school districts in the nation allow churches to rent space," he said. "I support the separation of church and state, but I also feel that the churches that have been allowed to rent space for the last 16 years...I believe that most of the churches who rent the space -- they don't go there to convert anyone. They just go there to rent in an hour when the school is closed. I hope that the mayor will sit down with the churches and find a solution of how they can continue renting the spaces," he said.


http://blogs.village...lu_allowing.php
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Old February 13th, 2012, 03:07 PM   #19
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I agree with the NYCLU on that and I'm pretty sure SCOTUS will too.



We're all still breathlessly waiting to hear your example of a public school teaching that there are no gods.
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Old February 13th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #20
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I agree with the NYCLU on that and I'm pretty sure SCOTUS will too.



We're all still breathlessly waiting to hear your example of a public school teaching that there are no gods.


I just gave you an example with which you, an atheist, agree.



Some atheists are quite a bit more subtle than some of their theist counterparts, but not quite as subtle as they may believe themselves to be.
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