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Old June 30th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #1
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Why do we live?



What is the point of us living?



What do we live for?



Are we just here for a short time to end in the grave?



Is there a point to human suffering?





What do you guys think?



Sometimes I wonder



I suppose my hope lies in truth and learning what else is there?
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Old July 1st, 2012, 08:58 AM   #2
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The only purpose in your life is the purpose you give it.



There is no point to human suffering because a "point" can only exist if someone creates it. I do not believe in a diety that creates human suffering therefore human suffering has no point.



Now there are sociopathic and psychopathic humans that create suffering and I'm sure that the suffering that they create has a point to them...but those are specific cases and not something that can be applied to mankind as a whole.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 09:53 AM   #3
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OK. I agree with that life is what you make it and the purpose what you give it. I think we agree on these points, but could you not create a "point" in suffering then?



I like your answer Wolf though its a rather tough one to accept when the purpose you can give life can change constantly and potentially not exist at times.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 10:22 AM   #4
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The meaning of life is to make lots of money.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 10:29 AM   #5
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The meaning of life is to make lots of money.


Great answer. It would seem so wouldn't it? Well if thats the case I have succeeded in life and yet I am still asking the question...
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Old July 1st, 2012, 10:37 AM   #6
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You need to go to a mountain top in Tibet and chant for several years before you realize the true meaning of life.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:30 PM   #7
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whats the point of this forum
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:47 PM   #8
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whats the point of this forum


Good question Dusty. I have wondered the same thing. I was hoping the point was "uniting in truth" but alas it seem more like a place where you gang up on eachother and bash eachother with nothing of value to say.



Not everyone is like that, but unfortunately the more "dominant" people seem to lean in the negative direction rather than positive, which is a real shame.



This place could be so great, and instead it is becoming a place which look more like a negative facebook with friends and entertainment. That is why it is great to have people like you here Dusty, for I think you are one of the people who could make this site a better one.



With regard to the topic. The point of the topic was to discuss theories of what the purpose of life is or in other words, the greatest values, achievements or success.

Maybe even philosophy on if there is a meaning with human existance and a hope for it to progress beyond this mortal experience.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 07:52 PM   #9
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OK. I agree with that life is what you make it and the purpose what you give it. I think we agree on these points, but could you not create a "point" in suffering then?



I like your answer Wolf though its a rather tough one to accept when the purpose you can give life can change constantly and potentially not exist at times.


of course it changes constantly. your life changes constantly. when you are 5 years old things are different to when you are 70 years old, life means something different. life changes when you have children, when you find or lose religion, why should there be a single purpose that universally applies?



it can easily happen that someone realises they have no purpose to life. sometimes this gets called depression.



i have heard people speak of the value of their suffering, that it reminds them to stay focussed on the important issues. for them, suffering has a purpose.



but this all only applies to human life. as human beings we are one kind of animal on a world with millions of other kinds of animals, and other forms of life. it is equally valid to ask what is the purpose of that blade of grasses life, or what is the meaning of a nematodes life?
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Old July 1st, 2012, 08:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Monkey' timestamp='1341165185' post='410306

OK. I agree with that life is what you make it and the purpose what you give it. I think we agree on these points, but could you not create a "point" in suffering then?



I like your answer Wolf though its a rather tough one to accept when the purpose you can give life can change constantly and potentially not exist at times.


of course it changes constantly. your life changes constantly. when you are 5 years old things are different to when you are 70 years old, life means something different. life changes when you have children, when you find or lose religion, why should there be a single purpose that universally applies?



it can easily happen that someone realises they have no purpose to life. sometimes this gets called depression.



i have heard people speak of the value of their suffering, that it reminds them to stay focussed on the important issues. for them, suffering has a purpose.



but this all only applies to human life. as human beings we are one kind of animal on a world with millions of other kinds of animals, and other forms of life. it is equally valid to ask what is the purpose of that blade of grasses life, or what is the meaning of a nematodes life?


You did not quite understand my post, but it wasn't that important. I agree that the other questions you ask are equally valid but those were not the questions I ansked and you have to start somewhere.



What I find very curious is how people who claim not to believe in God, life after death or a moral right and wrong see a purpose in a life which can end any given moment and to them seize to continue loosing with it all its knowledge, experiences and relationships in that instant. It makes no sense and I was hoping to get an explanation from one of the atheists which would not avoid the obvious fact of death and our inability to create life.



You do more to try to comment on my comment than you do to answer the actual question, instead you merely ask more. Is this because you don't have an answer or is that because you believe that there is NO purpose to life?
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Old July 1st, 2012, 10:52 PM   #11
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the question of a meaning of life is often asking after a purpose, as if there is a goal that life is striving towards or that the universe has been structured to make life inevitable. i think thats a mistake. lets look first at life in general, not you as an individual, but life as a whole .



consider a carbon atom. it might be bound to some other atoms and given enough of a kick those bonds break and new ones form. there isnt purpose in this, its just what atoms do.



consider a bacteria. it is composed of billions of large molecules, from lipids, enzymes, a genome of DNA, these molecules are massive, it takes thousands of atoms to make up an enzyme, or a strand of DNA. but the chemistry is still chemistry and the atoms that make up those enzymes are just reacting, in the same way as the lonely carbon atom above



consider you. the chemistry that makes up your body is incredibly complex chemistry. but many of the biochemical processess in your body are identical to the ones in the bacteria. you are chemistry. the chemistry in your body is just reacting as chemicals do.



there is no indication of a purpose, no indication that the chemistry that is life on earth is anything different to the chemistry that is the rocks on earth, its just atoms doing what atoms do. is there a purpose to granite? is there a meaning to the colour of iron ore? these questions are as reasonable as asking is there a purpose to life.



(this is my position, an atheistic position. it isnt a complete answer to the question, the next step is the question about an individual life, but that would make for a long post)
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Old July 1st, 2012, 11:16 PM   #12
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the question of a meaning of life is often asking after a purpose, as if there is a goal that life is striving towards or that the universe has been structured to make life inevitable. i think thats a mistake. lets look first at life in general, not you as an individual, but life as a whole .



consider a carbon atom. it might be bound to some other atoms and given enough of a kick those bonds break and new ones form. there isnt purpose in this, its just what atoms do.



consider a bacteria. it is composed of billions of large molecules, from lipids, enzymes, a genome of DNA, these molecules are massive, it takes thousands of atoms to make up an enzyme, or a strand of DNA. but the chemistry is still chemistry and the atoms that make up those enzymes are just reacting, in the same way as the lonely carbon atom above



consider you. the chemistry that makes up your body is incredibly complex chemistry. but many of the biochemical processess in your body are identical to the ones in the bacteria. you are chemistry. the chemistry in your body is just reacting as chemicals do.



there is no indication of a purpose, no indication that the chemistry that is life on earth is anything different to the chemistry that is the rocks on earth, its just atoms doing what atoms do. is there a purpose to granite? is there a meaning to the colour of iron ore? these questions are as reasonable as asking is there a purpose to life.



(this is my position, an atheistic position. it isnt a complete answer to the question, the next step is the question about an individual life, but that would make for a long post)


Atoms are not constant not even within, they constantly change and move to new connections as you mention and are influenced by outside circumstances as you may know from physics or quantum physics, but what is it that moves them? How do you know that they don't have a purpose or that there isn't a purpose to their patterns?



But I guess you answered the question from your point of view which I take to be that there is "no" purpose to life.



Now on an individual basis then what is the purpose of YOUR life? if you don't believe in a purpose of life as a "whole"?
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 12:06 AM   #13
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Atoms are not constant not even within, they constantly change and move to new connections as you mention and are influenced by outside circumstances as you may know from physics or quantum physics, but what is it that moves them? How do you know that they don't have a purpose or that there isn't a purpose to their patterns?



But I guess you answered the question from your point of view which I take to be that there is "no" purpose to life.



Now on an individual basis then what is the purpose of YOUR life? if you don't believe in a purpose of life as a "whole"?


certainly atoms move, according to the energy in the environment, and react according to what other atoms they have to react to. there is no indication of any pattern, any particular tendency to try and create anything specific. there is no purpose evident. perhaps there is purpose we havent learned to see yet? maybe, but lets wait until we can see it before deciding if it is there, we would look very silly if we leap to conclusions.



the purpose of MY life? to be a good father to my children, a good friend and lover to my partner, a good citizen to strangers, a good doctor to my patients. to leave the world a better place for my being here. to learn, to think, to feel, to bask in the beauty and wonder of the universe, to experience its joys as much as i can for the flyspeck of a time i am here to enjoy it.



this is not exhaustive and not in particular order. i choose my own purpose.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 08:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Monkey' timestamp='1341213390' post='410412

Atoms are not constant not even within, they constantly change and move to new connections as you mention and are influenced by outside circumstances as you may know from physics or quantum physics, but what is it that moves them? How do you know that they don't have a purpose or that there isn't a purpose to their patterns?



But I guess you answered the question from your point of view which I take to be that there is "no" purpose to life.



Now on an individual basis then what is the purpose of YOUR life? if you don't believe in a purpose of life as a "whole"?


certainly atoms move, according to the energy in the environment, and react according to what other atoms they have to react to. there is no indication of any pattern, any particular tendency to try and create anything specific. there is no purpose evident. perhaps there is purpose we havent learned to see yet? maybe, but lets wait until we can see it before deciding if it is there, we would look very silly if we leap to conclusions.



the purpose of MY life? to be a good father to my children, a good friend and lover to my partner, a good citizen to strangers, a good doctor to my patients. to leave the world a better place for my being here. to learn, to think, to feel, to bask in the beauty and wonder of the universe, to experience its joys as much as i can for the flyspeck of a time i am here to enjoy it.



this is not exhaustive and not in particular order. i choose my own purpose.


True on the atoms, about pattern I don't know if I would say that there is NO indication of pattern, but I have NO proof of any so I think we will just have to leave that one alone as neither of us have the knowledge to prove or disprove this one. I agree too with no purpose evident and am of the opinion that YES there is purpose we have not learned yet. I agree about not leaping to conclusions which is why I will not side with either religion or atheist. I will conclude there is a GOD though, simply because I exist and so must always have existed, and I have no awareness of this or must have been created by something or someone....whatever this creator is IS GOD.



I think you have found a grand purpose in being a father etc. I note you putting the word "good" before all these roles you have found purpose in. Most will agree that finding "good" IS the very purpose of life, so I completely agree. I am no father, but finding and creating "good" is my purpose too in a similar way to what you describe. Specifically I wish to learn to BE good, be good at everything worth being good at. So I love to learn and grow and place a great value on truth.



Thanks for the answer, it is very well thought out and a very intelligent one and I think you will have plenty of "good" to look forward to



So to sum up, we now have "good" as the point of life.

"freedom" as the highest moral. And honest truthseeking without false unproven conclusion as a step along the way.



This is good, we are getting somewhere now and have a foundation to build on. If we can agree on this, then I think we can get a lot out of future debates and out of DTT
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 07:23 PM   #15
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"good" is, i think a worthy purpose for a life and i am reassured you agree. that is my puropse and your purpose but it doesnt make it everyones purpose. i am not going to claim it is the best one, or the only one, or even my only one, but it is one i have chosen.



some people make it their purpose to be true to their percieved god. some choose power or influence, or wealth, or some choose violence and death and become suicide bombers. personally i dont think these give life meaning, but i am not them.



just one comment though, you write:



I agree too with no purpose evident and am of the opinion that YES there is purpose we have not learned yet. I agree about not leaping to conclusions which is why I will not side with either religion or atheist. I will conclude there is a GOD though, simply because I exist and so must always have existed, and I have no awareness of this or must have been created by something or someone....whatever this creator is IS GOD.



where you say you agree about not leaping to conclusions, and then leap to conclusions. this argument for god is mostly assumption, it is leaping to conclusions.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 09:06 PM   #16
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"good" is, i think a worthy purpose for a life and i am reassured you agree. that is my puropse and your purpose but it doesnt make it everyones purpose. i am not going to claim it is the best one, or the only one, or even my only one, but it is one i have chosen.



some people make it their purpose to be true to their percieved god. some choose power or influence, or wealth, or some choose violence and death and become suicide bombers. personally i dont think these give life meaning, but i am not them.



just one comment though, you write:



I agree too with no purpose evident and am of the opinion that YES there is purpose we have not learned yet. I agree about not leaping to conclusions which is why I will not side with either religion or atheist. I will conclude there is a GOD though, simply because I exist and so must always have existed, and I have no awareness of this or must have been created by something or someone....whatever this creator is IS GOD.



where you say you agree about not leaping to conclusions, and then leap to conclusions. this argument for god is mostly assumption, it is leaping to conclusions.


I agree with most of what you write, but you are wrong on the last part with regard to me leaping to a conclusion regarding God. Rather YOU are the one who lept to the conclusion and failed to understand that I have PROOF of the GOD I believe in. I have not claimed to believe in a traditional bearded God mind you. But I believe in God and have evidence that this God exist so that is not a leap to conclusion.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 10:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by hot dragon' timestamp='1341285836' post='410642

"good" is, i think a worthy purpose for a life and i am reassured you agree. that is my puropse and your purpose but it doesnt make it everyones purpose. i am not going to claim it is the best one, or the only one, or even my only one, but it is one i have chosen.



some people make it their purpose to be true to their percieved god. some choose power or influence, or wealth, or some choose violence and death and become suicide bombers. personally i dont think these give life meaning, but i am not them.



just one comment though, you write:



I agree too with no purpose evident and am of the opinion that YES there is purpose we have not learned yet. I agree about not leaping to conclusions which is why I will not side with either religion or atheist. I will conclude there is a GOD though, simply because I exist and so must always have existed, and I have no awareness of this or must have been created by something or someone....whatever this creator is IS GOD.



where you say you agree about not leaping to conclusions, and then leap to conclusions. this argument for god is mostly assumption, it is leaping to conclusions.


I agree with most of what you write, but you are wrong on the last part with regard to me leaping to a conclusion regarding God. Rather YOU are the one who lept to the conclusion and failed to understand that I have PROOF of the GOD I believe in. I have not claimed to believe in a traditional bearded God mind you. But I believe in God and have evidence that this God exist so that is not a leap to conclusion.


are you claiming god to whatever it was that caused the universe to be created? i guess you are correct, the universe is here, so god, under that definition exists. but that is a remote god that is far removed from human affairs.



it is a leap to connect this kind of god with anything to do with morals, or any other kind of human value judgements.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:11 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Monkey' timestamp='1341291995' post='410648

[quote name='hot dragon' timestamp='1341285836' post='410642']

"good" is, i think a worthy purpose for a life and i am reassured you agree. that is my puropse and your purpose but it doesnt make it everyones purpose. i am not going to claim it is the best one, or the only one, or even my only one, but it is one i have chosen.



some people make it their purpose to be true to their percieved god. some choose power or influence, or wealth, or some choose violence and death and become suicide bombers. personally i dont think these give life meaning, but i am not them.



just one comment though, you write:



I agree too with no purpose evident and am of the opinion that YES there is purpose we have not learned yet. I agree about not leaping to conclusions which is why I will not side with either religion or atheist. I will conclude there is a GOD though, simply because I exist and so must always have existed, and I have no awareness of this or must have been created by something or someone....whatever this creator is IS GOD.



where you say you agree about not leaping to conclusions, and then leap to conclusions. this argument for god is mostly assumption, it is leaping to conclusions.


I agree with most of what you write, but you are wrong on the last part with regard to me leaping to a conclusion regarding God. Rather YOU are the one who lept to the conclusion and failed to understand that I have PROOF of the GOD I believe in. I have not claimed to believe in a traditional bearded God mind you. But I believe in God and have evidence that this God exist so that is not a leap to conclusion.


are you claiming god to whatever it was that caused the universe to be created? i guess you are correct, the universe is here, so god, under that definition exists. but that is a remote god that is far removed from human affairs.



it is a leap to connect this kind of god with anything to do with morals, or any other kind of human value judgements.

[/quote]



I agree. What you wrote is my definision of God and all that exist has a God or it would not exist. But I completely agree with you that this God is far removed from human affairs and is not the God we read of in religious books.

I do not connect my belief in God with the morals or judgements I have. They are what I believe in and it is likely not anywhere near what the creater of the universe would have for morals or judgements.



It would seem we might agree on both freedom as moral, good as purpose of life, and God as a creator of what exist. I'm glad we have come this far for it gives a great foundation to build on in trying to expand freedom, good or understanding
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Monkey' timestamp='1341291995' post='410648

[quote name='hot dragon' timestamp='1341285836' post='410642']

"good" is, i think a worthy purpose for a life and i am reassured you agree. that is my puropse and your purpose but it doesnt make it everyones purpose. i am not going to claim it is the best one, or the only one, or even my only one, but it is one i have chosen.



some people make it their purpose to be true to their percieved god. some choose power or influence, or wealth, or some choose violence and death and become suicide bombers. personally i dont think these give life meaning, but i am not them.



just one comment though, you write:



I agree too with no purpose evident and am of the opinion that YES there is purpose we have not learned yet. I agree about not leaping to conclusions which is why I will not side with either religion or atheist. I will conclude there is a GOD though, simply because I exist and so must always have existed, and I have no awareness of this or must have been created by something or someone....whatever this creator is IS GOD.



where you say you agree about not leaping to conclusions, and then leap to conclusions. this argument for god is mostly assumption, it is leaping to conclusions.


I agree with most of what you write, but you are wrong on the last part with regard to me leaping to a conclusion regarding God. Rather YOU are the one who lept to the conclusion and failed to understand that I have PROOF of the GOD I believe in. I have not claimed to believe in a traditional bearded God mind you. But I believe in God and have evidence that this God exist so that is not a leap to conclusion.


are you claiming god to whatever it was that caused the universe to be created? i guess you are correct, the universe is here, so god, under that definition exists. but that is a remote god that is far removed from human affairs.



it is a leap to connect this kind of god with anything to do with morals, or any other kind of human value judgements.

[/quote]



This concept increasingly is becoming archaic.



Your whereabouts, using current technologies, can be determined in short order by many agencies, private and governmental.



Evolve current technologies 1,000 years.



Now, think of the "technologies" of a being or beings with the capability to create a universe.



"Far removed" may be a concept of a primitive mind with a limited awareness, a mind unable or unwilling to see just where current trends are trending.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:44 PM   #20
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I agree. What you wrote is my definision of God and all that exist has a God or it would not exist. But I completely agree with you that this God is far removed from human affairs and is not the God we read of in religious books.

I do not connect my belief in God with the morals or judgements I have. They are what I believe in and it is likely not anywhere near what the creater of the universe would have for morals or judgements.



It would seem we might agree on both freedom as moral, good as purpose of life, and God as a creator of what exist. I'm glad we have come this far for it gives a great foundation to build on in trying to expand freedom, good or understanding


ok, on this i think we do agree.



i am happy to use the word god to essentially describe the moment of the big bang. after that, things have progressed according to underlying principles without any indication of guidance.



here is where you lose me. god, under this definition is remote, unconcerned, uninvolved with human affairs.



so why does belief in such a god have anything to do with morality? morality is a human issue, something people make judgements about and people make choices about. how is it connected to this kind of god?



how do you come to the conclusion that if i do not believe in god there is no basis for morality? such a god is by definition removed from human affairs, and by definition isnt relevant to morality.



so why do you
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