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Old January 30th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #1
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Praying and acting

[SIZE="4"]The following advice is from a prayer book:

"Pray as if everything depended upon God, act as if everything depended on you."

I think that this is consistent with the idea of NOMA, formulated by the biologist Stephen Gould.

We exist in the material world; God exists in the spiritual world.

The context in which the idea of NOMA was formulated is summarized in my article about futile conflicts between theists and atheists:

http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kow...o/ateists.html
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Last edited by kowalskil; January 30th, 2013 at 02:17 PM. Reason: typos
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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kowalskil View Post
[SIZE="4"]The following advice is from a prayer book:

"Pray as if everything depended upon God, act as if everything depended on you."

I think that this is consistent with the idea of NOMA, formulated by the biologist Stephen Gould.

We exist in the material world; God exists in the spiritual world.

The context in which the idea of NOMA was formulated is summarized in my article about futile conflicts between theists and atheists:

http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kow...o/ateists.html
Good quote and post about prayer and action. It makes sense to me, however the futile conflicts between theists and atheists don't.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:08 AM   #3
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objective and subjective are the same thing when true existence is pointed or meant and not creations or inventions of wills

true subject is more present there but less useful for anything else
true object is more busy in knowin the best for all but less able to add anything positive

that is how the aim is true existence and not everyone existence nor realities existence

where any is realizin its own self reality so freely or the present is always free

what is else to object and subject??? bc if object and subject are the same thing as i say in truth then there must another concept that would better define true existence of anything

what is else existence while absolutely different to object or subject, is positive self life being

the sense of positive constancy so as true is totally individual sense of being or moving
while always due to real connections with true existence perspectives as being else

so the sense of living individually alone by seein and knowing and not the fact of life so never out of being alive

second major opposition justification to the op means

actin as if everything depend on u is retarded totally so cant b existing but for negative sources, that is why it goes well with the reference of god upon all
provin how far it is the same thing

if u r superior to everything around u, then everything around u do not exist, and when only u exist then actin is the print of inferior existence, as if u want to pretend smthg by knowin that nothing exist, only inferiority could mean to take advantage from knowin that nothing exist
when only u exist then it would b logical to turn to urself constant existence fact so u could confirm its positive constancy ends being free

actin right is actin as if nothing depend on u, how far can u mean smthg without gettin it to u, this is the only way to act positively in terms of makin a real difference around without alterin the nature and forms of anything, so as a plus to even oneself

what u reject is to admit that any existence cant but b free, ur mortal condition and knoweldge that creations exist make u willin to reject the obvious right

any cant exist but by itself so to b constant as existence cant b but constant end even if just a day which is made by infinity of seconds difference to realize alone

true conscious know how else matters a lot for anything, bc existence right is only and exclusively the true living same out of all else knowledge, the true constant that would evolve always at best ends
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:29 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by absols View Post
objective and subjective are the same thing when true existence is pointed or meant and not creations or inventions of wills

true subject is more present there but less useful for anything else
true object is more busy in knowin the best for all but less able to add anything positive

that is how the aim is true existence and not everyone existence nor realities existence

where any is realizin its own self reality so freely or the present is always free

what is else to object and subject??? bc if object and subject are the same thing as i say in truth then there must another concept that would better define true existence of anything

what is else existence while absolutely different to object or subject, is positive self life being

the sense of positive constancy so as true is totally individual sense of being or moving
while always due to real connections with true existence perspectives as being else

so the sense of living individually alone by seein and knowing and not the fact of life so never out of being alive
Wow, this is deep. Great stuff. Love it!!!

Subjective and Objective the same thing? Well by definition it isn't, but I think I see your point. In reality the illution might be that there is anything Objective at all.

If Subjectivity is being present, it could be viewed as love, consciousness or awareness and that would require truth.

If Objectivitity is being knowledgeable, it could be viewed as truth, intelligence, wisdom, experience, but also consciousness and awareness which would connect it to subjectivity.

Can you Objectively know all and not Subjectivily care about it?
Can you Subjectively care about something you don't know and understand?

In reality I don't think so. And so I see truth, love, positiveness, justice, freedom etc. as connected if you look at the big picture, and then Objectivity and Subjectivity is as well. Meaning that true objectivity is also loving and caring, and true subjectivity is knowing and that the whole division between the two is the deception and illusion.

A very clever point and observation Absols

Your second point about God and acting as everything depend on us, makes sense too, though life is what we make it is equally true or perhaps rather life is what we allow God to make it.

You write:
if u r superior to everything around u, then everything around u do not exist, and when only u exist then actin is the print of inferior existence, as if u want to pretend smthg by knowin that nothing exist, only inferiority could mean to take advantage from knowin that nothing exist
when only u exist then it would b logical to turn to urself constant existence fact so u could confirm its positive constancy ends being free.

Again very deep and a great point which is tough for me to follow, but I think I do with careful consideration.

I am very impressed by your post and your dept and intelligence here, it is not often I read things deeper than what I have considered myself, but I feel I have learned something from what you wrote here.

And for that I wish to give you a heartfelt thank you.
This is the sort of thing I hoped to find here. Great post.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kowalskil View Post
[SIZE="4"]The following advice is from a prayer book:

"Pray as if everything depended upon God, act as if everything depended on you."

I think that this is consistent with the idea of NOMA, formulated by the biologist Stephen Gould.

We exist in the material world; God exists in the spiritual world.

The context in which the idea of NOMA was formulated is summarized in my article about futile conflicts between theists and atheists:

http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kow...o/ateists.html
Indeed! Futile!
As with most conflicts of human reason.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absols View Post
objective and subjective are the same thing when true existence is pointed or meant and not creations or inventions of wills

true subject is more present there but less useful for anything else
true object is more busy in knowin the best for all but less able to add anything positive

that is how the aim is true existence and not everyone existence nor realities existence

where any is realizin its own self reality so freely or the present is always free

what is else to object and subject??? bc if object and subject are the same thing as i say in truth then there must another concept that would better define true existence of anything

what is else existence while absolutely different to object or subject, is positive self life being

the sense of positive constancy so as true is totally individual sense of being or moving
while always due to real connections with true existence perspectives as being else

so the sense of living individually alone by seein and knowing and not the fact of life so never out of being alive

second major opposition justification to the op means

actin as if everything depend on u is retarded totally so cant b existing but for negative sources, that is why it goes well with the reference of god upon all
provin how far it is the same thing

if u r superior to everything around u, then everything around u do not exist, and when only u exist then actin is the print of inferior existence, as if u want to pretend smthg by knowin that nothing exist, only inferiority could mean to take advantage from knowin that nothing exist
when only u exist then it would b logical to turn to urself constant existence fact so u could confirm its positive constancy ends being free

actin right is actin as if nothing depend on u, how far can u mean smthg without gettin it to u, this is the only way to act positively in terms of makin a real difference around without alterin the nature and forms of anything, so as a plus to even oneself

what u reject is to admit that any existence cant but b free, ur mortal condition and knoweldge that creations exist make u willin to reject the obvious right

any cant exist but by itself so to b constant as existence cant b but constant end even if just a day which is made by infinity of seconds difference to realize alone

true conscious know how else matters a lot for anything, bc existence right is only and exclusively the true living same out of all else knowledge, the true constant that would evolve always at best ends
The connection is made...One without the other is still one.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
Wow, this is deep. Great stuff. Love it!!!



Can you Objectively know all and not Subjectivily care about it?
Can you Subjectively care about something you don't know and understand?
i have to reply to this as u r usin my words for smthg opposed to

when i say they are the same i really mean totally the same,

which prove that only truth exist

subject is an absolute being that cant b but individual then to b absolutely constant so existing in exitence realms
as long as it doesnt mean being true itself, it would b the limit that define objectivity which lead to creations facts so provin how for subjects objective existence realm is too superior to mean
but it is essentially too due to wills to b of lies betin on gettin more stable constancy then out of positive profits possessions

also objective powers are what define subjects from superior complex which confirm that they are not superiors at all, and it is the case of any god
while evil source, bc what mean being superior in powerful terms is the reason of monstruosities and worse crimes against individual rights and true existence real values

true existence is about the plus which is at all and any right ends

so subject is the right plus out of self realisation and object is the right plus out of reality alone

provin how any in anyways mean being plus ends so how truth is superiority and existence is superiority values results so infinite always free positive real
plus

to picture what is the truth, i would say that in freedom realms so without any force, it doesnt matter what is there or if there is nothing, the fact is the same result, a constant plus free
so the reason is surely due to freedom life but truth reason is more the plus that is generated by freedom life perspectives

free smthg and u would get connected to true positive sense results

truth is simple in the sense that truth is always of absolutes so objectively is very simple to identify and recongnize what is the most evident obvious anywhere
but truth is not simple when u mean to b true or to define it
bc truth is principally about values which are absolutely superior always and there where i define truth being superiority so by definition infinite
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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:55 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by absols View Post
i have to reply to this as u r usin my words for smthg opposed to

when i say they are the same i really mean totally the same,

which prove that only truth exist

subject is an absolute being that cant b but individual then to b absolutely constant so existing in exitence realms
as long as it doesnt mean being true itself, it would b the limit that define objectivity which lead to creations facts so provin how for subjects objective existence realm is too superior to mean
but it is essentially too due to wills to b of lies betin on gettin more stable constancy then out of positive profits possessions

also objective powers are what define subjects from superior complex which confirm that they are not superiors at all, and it is the case of any god
while evil source, bc what mean being superior in powerful terms is the reason of monstruosities and worse crimes against individual rights and true existence real values

true existence is about the plus which is at all and any right ends

so subject is the right plus out of self realisation and object is the right plus out of reality alone

provin how any in anyways mean being plus ends so how truth is superiority and existence is superiority values results so infinite always free positive real
plus

to picture what is the truth, i would say that in freedom realms so without any force, it doesnt matter what is there or if there is nothing, the fact is the same result, a constant plus free
so the reason is surely due to freedom life but truth reason is more the plus that is generated by freedom life perspectives

free smthg and u would get connected to true positive sense results

truth is simple in the sense that truth is always of absolutes so objectively is very simple to identify and recongnize what is the most evident obvious anywhere
but truth is not simple when u mean to b true or to define it
bc truth is principally about values which are absolutely superior always and there where i define truth being superiority so by definition infinite
It appears you have misunderstood me.

Objectivity and Subjectivity may in ACTUALITY be the same as I said, but it is not by definition which I though you said, and which I said as well for otherwise you contradicted yourself.

As smart as your thinking is, your communication leaves something to be desired. For it is very tough to read what you write and you have not understood me either.

For example you seem to forget that others are not in your mind, for what you describe about plus I doubt makes sense to anyone but yourself.

I get and understand what you say about truth and objectivity and we don't disagree here even if you don't understand what it is I am writing.
Yes truth is simple and an absolute, but arriving at that absolute is not so simple as it requires you to filter out all that is not true and so a distraction.

I like what you write about truth being values and agree.

In fact I think you need to explain yourself in your claim that I am using your words for something opposed to.

This is not so, and I would like you to show me where you think I have used your words incorrectly, and to explain how you define "plus" so we can get to the TRUTH here. Thanks
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:12 PM   #9
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it is ur communication that is all false so u have not the least standard that recognize smthg else correctly
that is how u prove being a liar, when i gave a clear picture to describe what is a plus for any common mind but also the way to get in touch with in simplest terms for clarity needs that absolute value oblige to and for innocent intersts that could b present around

while u invent ways of using cheap else abuse by suggestin that i have to think everyone being in my head

when i am clearly the only poster who never use words for himself nor to, it is then for sure the opposite fact

dont thank me u dont get but urself always the same u but objectively more limited in freedom or supported to reach true free existence

and dont use my words for ur wills, of course i never said any of ur claims it is incredible such insolence extent just bc u dont feel forced to respect some rights

i clearly said it is the same totally, how subject are defined by objective powers so it is not the subject truth and vice versa objects are defined by subjects limits that proved not being able to see anything

Last edited by absols; January 31st, 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absols View Post
it is ur communication that is all false so u have not the least standard that recognize smthg else correctly
that is how u prove being a liar, when i gave a clear picture to describe what is a plus for any common mind but also the way to get in touch with in simplest terms for clarity needs that absolute value oblige to and for innocent intersts that could b present around

while u invent how my posts suggest an expression thinking everyone being in its head

when it is clearly the opposite
when i am clearly the only poster who never use words for himself nor to

dont thank me u dont get but urself always the same u but objectively more limited in freedom or supported to reach true free existence
Good grief now you are being both hypocritical and insulting.

My mistake. I thought you were smart, but there is nothing intelligent in the way you communicate now. Get back to me when you learn humility and ability to see evaluate yourself.

I am no liar, however you have just proven yourself to be with your baseless accusations. We are done unless you apologize.

You have not given a clear picture or explanation, in fact it is very tough to understand anything you write because you half the time use the wrong words or spelling. You give me the impression that you either don't talk much to people at all, or like me don't come from and english speaking language.

I was trying to be nice, and you return with arrogant poisonous personal attacks. That is unacceptable. We are done.
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