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Old February 19th, 2014, 05:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
If the future is known (as it would be with an omniscient god) then free will does not exist.

If the future is unknown then free will can exist (but is not required to exist)
(My bold)

Hmmm. If only God knows the future - as He's posited to know everything, everywhere, throughout eternity - then from His point of view - free will may not exist. (Because He can hold & process all the information - the World [excuse me, the Universe] seems to be deterministic, if you know everything.)

But from the POV of a mere human - who is time bound & definitely NOT all-knowing, etc. - our individual lives are certainly contingent, & therefore - through sheer ignorance, or incapacity/lack of access to all the knowledge of all the Universe - free will (or @ least the appearance of it) may exist for us as individuals.

The novel Dune toyed with these notions, from the POV of prophecy. V. interesting reading, & still a topic of interest. Good to know.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 05:40 PM   #12
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(My bold)

Hmmm. If only God knows the future - as He's posited to know everything, everywhere, throughout eternity - then from His point of view - free will may not exist. (Because He can hold & process all the information - the World [excuse me, the Universe] seems to be deterministic, if you know everything.)

But from the POV of a mere human - who is time bound & definitely NOT all-knowing, etc. - our individual lives are certainly contingent, & therefore - through sheer ignorance, or incapacity/lack of access to all the knowledge of all the Universe - free will (or @ least the appearance of it) may exist for us as individuals.

The novel Dune toyed with these notions, from the POV of prophecy. V. interesting reading, & still a topic of interest. Good to know.
If the future is known....by anyone or anything....then the future is determined. If the future is determined then free will cannot exist. Whether you, personally, know the future or not is irrelevant.

You might have the illusion of free will....but that is all it would be, an illusion.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 07:35 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
If the future is known....by anyone or anything....then the future is determined. If the future is determined then free will cannot exist. Whether you, personally, know the future or not is irrelevant.

You might have the illusion of free will....but that is all it would be, an illusion.
(My bold)

I glanced @ the Wikipedia article in re. My head still hurts. I may come back to this one, too many irons in the fire just now. & I'm falling further & further behind in my reading as it is.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 04:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
If the future is known....by anyone or anything....then the future is determined. If the future is determined then free will cannot exist. Whether you, personally, know the future or not is irrelevant.

You might have the illusion of free will....but that is all it would be, an illusion.
time is the illusion, God can roll dice randomly knowing what the result will be because all of time is a single instant to him, there is no before and after for God. everything always is.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 05:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
If the future is known (as it would be with an omniscient god) then free will does not exist.

If the future is unknown then free will can exist (but is not required to exist)
I know that the stove is hot, and that if I touch it I will be burned.

Now the fact that I touch it or not is MY FREE WILL CHOICE.

just because you know something will happen, does not mean the freedom to choose is null and void.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 05:21 AM   #16
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time is the illusion, God can roll dice randomly knowing what the result will be because all of time is a single instant to him, there is no before and after for God. everything always is.
we are a beings that live in 3 dimensions

God is a being that controls 4, time is the dimension he controls that we do not.

This is how he can be everywhere at anytime.. because time is not a barrier to him.

Thus he knows the decisions we will make in the future, he just does not, control that decision, he allows us to make it ..
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Old February 20th, 2014, 09:57 AM   #17
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in nature we have actions and reactions. everything that happens is the consequence of the actions that precede it.

everything is like a computer just processing a program, no decisions are made.

so how is free will possible?
Much of our reaction to things is based on our interpretation of the situation. With you asking this question, for example, I read the title on the forum and chose to read the thread (my interpretation: this is potentially interesting). After reading the thread it was not an automatic consequence that I added my thoughts; I chose to participate. There are many threads that I have read here where my interpretation has been "not for me."

What action that preceded put the koala on your avatar?
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:02 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
If the future is known (as it would be with an omniscient god) then free will does not exist.

If the future is unknown then free will can exist (but is not required to exist)
What if it is an omniscient god, where all of time exists simultaneously and that knows all possible outcomes?
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
If the future is known (as it would be with an omniscient god) then free will does not exist.

If the future is unknown then free will can exist (but is not required to exist)
that insistence to confuse freedom with objective existence is sick ..

freedom is a fact of being out of everything, freedom is then about being present which is impossible where else exist .. otherwise you cant be free as objective reality share would prevail as being the present existing thing

that is why freedom is possible only when objective existence is true .. so through objective right ways of existence sense .. when objective fact is true then freedom is possible out of facts .. or when objective is not real then there is always something else hidden so freedom out of unknown or wrong is impossible

while truth is freedom source by definition .. what is true is not only existing realistically but also what is true is always present so it would constantly mean something else value.. which is enough reason for else to mean being positively as possible end .. free wills out of conscious knowledge that positive can be constant outcome of else existence value or of truth

Last edited by absols; February 20th, 2014 at 10:47 AM.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
I know that the stove is hot, and that if I touch it I will be burned.

Now the fact that I touch it or not is MY FREE WILL CHOICE.

just because you know something will happen, does not mean the freedom to choose is null and void.
Nope, you ASSUME you will be burned (and you may have very good reasons for that assumption) but KNOWLEDGE of a future event is impossible for a human being (unless you believe that precognition is real)

The knowledge that god allegedly has is not an assumption, it is factual knowledge as if the future event has already happened.

That kind of knowledge precludes free will. God not only knows whether or not the stove will burn you but he knows whether or not you are going to touch it and he had known before your grandfather was born.

With that kind of knowledge free will is impossible.
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