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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho View Post
What if it is an omniscient god, where all of time exists simultaneously and that knows all possible outcomes?
The question is not knowing all possible outcomes but knowledge of a specific outcome.

I can flip a coin and I know all possible outcomes. (Heads, Tails, lands on its edge) but that is different than the knowledge of the actual outcome.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 04:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The question is not knowing all possible outcomes but knowledge of a specific outcome.

I can flip a coin and I know all possible outcomes. (Heads, Tails, lands on its edge) but that is different than the knowledge of the actual outcome.
and suppose a perfect omniscient God can device a perfect plan that responds to every possible outcome?

is expressing free will the same thing as a random response? perhaps not.

this not quite the discussion I was trying to start. I was looking for more of a secular explanation. is there free will? how is that physically possible?

ya gonna go to the heisenberg uncertainty principle? how does that find its way into human thought?

is the uncertainty principle real? or is it just a symbolic expression of something we still don't understand?
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Old February 21st, 2014, 03:40 AM   #23
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it is funny how you reverse the principle of certainty naturally ..

as if creation of fake realities for a long time as a condition forced on beings could be recalled as the truth reference ... pervert turn ways .. you are surely conscious in suggesting this

what is certain is by definition free .. as it is absolutely existing so present thing ..

certainty is always a concept of something true that could matter in facts

to turn uncertainty to freedom principle ... ??? says a lot about you
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #24
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the only way I can deciper absols post is do animals have free
will like us humans do. animals do have in them
hate. love. fear. the same as humans do. I think this is what absols is getting at
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #25
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the only way I can deciper absols post is do animals have free
will like us humans do. animals do have in them
hate. love. fear. the same as humans do. I think this is what absols is getting at
IRONIC POST OF THE YEAR!!!

Dusty complaining about having to decipher someone else's post.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 04:23 AM   #26
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"what is certain is by definition free...." ?

No, It's not. If the outcome is certain, there's no choice, no freedom.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 04:36 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The question is not knowing all possible outcomes but knowledge of a specific outcome.

I can flip a coin and I know all possible outcomes. (Heads, Tails, lands on its edge) but that is different than the knowledge of the actual outcome.
knowing the outcome and CONTROLLING the out come is 2 different things.

God knows the outcome, he does not control the choices that creates the outcome.

lets say I get a time machine, I go into the future tomorrow.. and I know the winning lottery numbers.. I know the outcome but I have no control over then numbers that are picked. Knowledge and control are different. God Could control the outcome if he chose to remove free will


Isaiah was called to be a prophet, he was hiding from Jezebel, he spoke to God and told him, he was afraid, but if he did not go, that there would be no one to confront her.

What was God's response. If you don't go, I have 1000s of others I can choose from, but I have called you. If you refues, I will call another.

He knew that Isaiah would go, but he did not MAKE the choice for him.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:32 AM   #28
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knowing the outcome and CONTROLLING the out come is 2 different things.

God knows the outcome, he does not control the choices that creates the outcome.

lets say I get a time machine, I go into the future tomorrow.. and I know the winning lottery numbers.. I know the outcome but I have no control over then numbers that are picked. Knowledge and control are different. God Could control the outcome if he chose to remove free will


Isaiah was called to be a prophet, he was hiding from Jezebel, he spoke to God and told him, he was afraid, but if he did not go, that there would be no one to confront her.

What was God's response. If you don't go, I have 1000s of others I can choose from, but I have called you. If you refues, I will call another.

He knew that Isaiah would go, but he did not MAKE the choice for him.
I never said God controlled the outcome just that if he KNOWS the outcome that means free will does not exist.

You can make no choice that changes the preordained outcome.

As with your example with the stove, if God KNOWS that you will touch the stove and he has known since before you were born, when the moment comes for you to make that "choice" you cannot choose to NOT touch the stove because the outcome is already known by god.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #29
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IRONIC POST OF THE YEAR!!!

Dusty complaining about having to decipher someone else's post.
ha
can you?
do you know what absols is talking about
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Old February 25th, 2014, 10:33 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
I never said God controlled the outcome just that if he KNOWS the outcome that means free will does not exist.

You can make no choice that changes the preordained outcome.

As with your example with the stove, if God KNOWS that you will touch the stove and he has known since before you were born, when the moment comes for you to make that "choice" you cannot choose to NOT touch the stove because the outcome is already known by god.
a thousand light years from here (hypothetical), an 1 meter tall purple and green skinned alien decided to burn his neighbor's house down. if we are watching him with a very powerful telescope for the week before he does it, does he still have free will to choose the action? even though this really happened a thousand years ago?

knowing the outcome is a matter of perspective. it doesn't change the perspective or the choice of a person making a choice.
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