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Old February 26th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
"what is certain is by definition free...." ?

No, It's not. If the outcome is certain, there's no choice, no freedom.
what outcome ?? the notion of outcome is totally subjective so it has nothing to do with certainty concept nor with certainly being

what is certain is an objective thing at least relatively.. that is how being relative is always right

what is certain is an absolute perspective of existence as being a fact, including own self fact of being certainly existing

you cant know how far you are known being lying about anything .. because you cant ever picture how far truth is true .. when your intention of being is to take advantage from knowing that existence is a positive thing

like you cant know that positive factor is first about being present and also about any being free ..

for you, positive is only an outcome

while never .. positive is whether the value of being present so objectively always real in terms of constant reference of being
or/and what is positive is free source so true superior thing of being individuality .. then it would keep all good to itself fact of being alone always positive source end, that is why it is impossible to be positive source of others or anything else

you mean the abuse of positive factor.. as evil freedom would think and want

while you don't know that positive is never an objective thing

that is what proves existence being true.. when positive is totally protected in truth

positive as free source cant be but alone so whenever there is else, positive is only through being the same will of what can never be there

only by being absolutely true that else would stay free while being absolutely true is none as totally objective fact so never a being

and positive as being constant reference in terms of present true existence value .. is all to itself constancy of being alone so always negative fact to anything else

that is how evil proves that positive mean is the devil freedom .. what exist from meaning subjectively being the only thing left by enjoying killing everything known existence and by ruining all else freedom rights strength

Last edited by absols; February 26th, 2014 at 12:42 PM.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 01:10 PM   #32
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else existence being a fact doesn't make them free nor does it say anything about free will being

individuals being is what proves existence being true, so the freedom of the perceiver from everything existence fact

then god cant know the outcome when god force all to be one life by denying else existence being a fact
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Old February 26th, 2014, 03:41 PM   #33
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don't nwolfe35 look like
hoss on bonaza
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Old February 26th, 2014, 03:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by absols View Post
what outcome ?? the notion of outcome is totally subjective so it has nothing to do with certainty concept nor with certainly being

what is certain is an objective thing at least relatively.. that is how being relative is always right

what is certain is an absolute perspective of existence as being a fact, including own self fact of being certainly existing

you cant know how far you are known being lying about anything .. because you cant ever picture how far truth is true .. when your intention of being is to take advantage from knowing that existence is a positive thing

like you cant know that positive factor is first about being present and also about any being free ..

for you, positive is only an outcome

while never .. positive is whether the value of being present so objectively always real in terms of constant reference of being
or/and what is positive is free source so true superior thing of being individuality .. then it would keep all good to itself fact of being alone always positive source end, that is why it is impossible to be positive source of others or anything else

you mean the abuse of positive factor.. as evil freedom would think and want

while you don't know that positive is never an objective thing

that is what proves existence being true.. when positive is totally protected in truth

positive as free source cant be but alone so whenever there is else, positive is only through being the same will of what can never be there

only by being absolutely true that else would stay free while being absolutely true is none as totally objective fact so never a being

and positive as being constant reference in terms of present true existence value .. is all to itself constancy of being alone so always negative fact to anything else

that is how evil proves that positive mean is the devil freedom .. what exist from meaning subjectively being the only thing left by enjoying killing everything known existence and by ruining all else freedom rights strength
what is for sure is we are having more pork chops
baked potatos and corn on the cob tomorrow for super
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Old February 26th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #35
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a thousand light years from here (hypothetical), an 1 meter tall purple and green skinned alien decided to burn his neighbor's house down. if we are watching him with a very powerful telescope for the week before he does it, does he still have free will to choose the action? even though this really happened a thousand years ago?

knowing the outcome is a matter of perspective. it doesn't change the perspective or the choice of a person making a choice.
Not the same thing....

An omniscient God KNOWS the outcome before the event takes place...before any decision is made an omniscient God not only knows WHAT decisions will be made but knows the outcomes of those decisions...he knows the decisions that will be made as the result of those outcomes....

In short he knows everything....and that kind of knowledge means that there is nothing we can do to change those outcomes....we cannot change the decisions that will be made.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #36
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Not the same thing....

An omniscient God KNOWS the outcome before the event takes place...before any decision is made an omniscient God not only knows WHAT decisions will be made but knows the outcomes of those decisions...he knows the decisions that will be made as the result of those outcomes....

In short he knows everything....and that kind of knowledge means that there is nothing we can do to change those outcomes....we cannot change the decisions that will be made.
if i read your thread in the context of the topic title you are arguing there is no such thing as free will. but I don't believe that is your intention.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #37
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if i read your thread in the context of the topic title you are arguing there is no such thing as free will. but I don't believe that is your intention.
I am arguing that if an omniscient God (such as the Abrahamic God) exists then free will cannot exist.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 08:23 PM   #38
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I am arguing that if an omniscient God (such as the Abrahamic God) exists then free will cannot exist.
Yes it can.. Omniscient God (all powerful and all knowing) exists.

Free will can exist if the God Knows, but does not force his will.

This is why Christians Pray that they will do God Will and not THEIR will.

Because they know God will let them wander and make stupid choices.

Just look at Sampson, David, Gideon, Peter, Paul, Thomas, Lot, Moses.. They all made choices that offended God, God could have stopped them but he allowed them to make their choices.


And we see the consequences of the choices good and bad, this is the purpose of the Old Testiment

for example, Sampson shows how far a man can fall if he becomes a drunk and a fornicator and adulterer.

Last edited by TNVolunteer73; February 26th, 2014 at 08:27 PM.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 08:43 PM   #39
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Yes it can.. Omniscient God (all powerful and all knowing) exists.

Free will can exist if the God Knows, but does not force his will.

This is why Christians Pray that they will do God Will and not THEIR will.

Because they know God will let them wander and make stupid choices.

Just look at Sampson, David, Gideon, Peter, Paul, Thomas, Lot, Moses.. They all made choices that offended God, God could have stopped them but he allowed them to make their choices.


And we see the consequences of the choices good and bad, this is the purpose of the Old Testiment

for example, Sampson shows how far a man can fall if he becomes a drunk and a fornicator and adulterer.
I don't care if God intervenes......that has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

If God KNOWS what your decision is before you make it.....if he knew what your decision was going to be before your grandfather was born....then you have no free will. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

It's like God is watching a movie, the ending is already determined. He doesn't influence the decision of the characters on the screen....but they have no free will....all of their decisions were mapped out before the projector was even turned on.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 08:47 PM   #40
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I don't care if God intervenes......that has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

If God KNOWS what your decision is before you make it.....if he knew what your decision was going to be before your grandfather was born....then you have no free will. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

It's like God is watching a movie, the ending is already determined. He doesn't influence the decision of the characters on the screen....but they have no free will....all of their decisions were mapped out before the projector was even turned on.
Yes you do. If he does nothing to force your to make decision a or b.. means you have the free will to make the choice.

Free will means YOU make the choice it is not made for you.


I knew that would be a day my kids would sneak cookies from the jar..


Because I knew they would, they had the free will choice not to take them, but human nature is human nature.
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