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Old February 26th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #41
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Yes you do. If he does nothing to force your to make decision a or b.. means you have the free will to make the choice.

Free will means YOU make the choice it is not made for you.


I knew that would be a day my kids would sneak cookies from the jar..


Because I knew they would, they had the free will choice not to take them, but human nature is human nature.
If the decision you are going to make is already known....if it has been known before you were born, before your father was born, before your grandfather was born...then you have no free will. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to make any other decision then the one that is already known.

You don't KNOW when the kids were going to sneak the cookies...you just made an assumption that they would at some point in the future. That is different then the KNOWLEDGE that an omniscient god possesses. Your "knowledge" is not true knowledge...it is an assumption based on human nature.

Your kid may sneak a cookie....and you may even be pretty sure in your assumption that the child will do that....

But God KNOWS that the child will sneak the cookies on Tuesday afternoon at 4:37 PM EST. That he will do it by taking the dining room chair that you usually sit in for dinner. He knows that the child will reach in, take two cookies (one chocolate chip, one peanut butter) and he knows that he will take them back to his room before he eats them. He also knows that you will not see the child do this and you will be completely unaware that this has happened.

So at 4:00 PM that child can do nothing that will change the course of events that God already knows is going to happen. God has known since the beginning of time that THIS is what is going to happen. There is no decision you can make, there is no decision the child can make....there is no decision anyone anywhere can make that is going to change the events that are GOING TO HAPPEN at Tuesday at 4:37 PM.

God does nothing to intervene (and, in fact, cannot DO anything to intervene since the events are already known to him) but the child's future is already determined....thus no free will.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #42
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If the decision you are going to make is already known....if it has been known before you were born, before your father was born, before your grandfather was born...then you have no free will. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to make any other decision then the one that is already known.

You don't KNOW when the kids were going to sneak the cookies...you just made an assumption that they would at some point in the future. That is different then the KNOWLEDGE that an omniscient god possesses. Your "knowledge" is not true knowledge...it is an assumption based on human nature.

Your kid may sneak a cookie....and you may even be pretty sure in your assumption that the child will do that....

But God KNOWS that the child will sneak the cookies on Tuesday afternoon at 4:37 PM EST. That he will do it by taking the dining room chair that you usually sit in for dinner. He knows that the child will reach in, take two cookies (one chocolate chip, one peanut butter) and he knows that he will take them back to his room before he eats them. He also knows that you will not see the child do this and you will be completely unaware that this has happened.

So at 4:00 PM that child can do nothing that will change the course of events that God already knows is going to happen. God has known since the beginning of time that THIS is what is going to happen. There is no decision you can make, there is no decision the child can make....there is no decision anyone anywhere can make that is going to change the events that are GOING TO HAPPEN at Tuesday at 4:37 PM.

God does nothing to intervene (and, in fact, cannot DO anything to intervene since the events are already known to him) but the child's future is already determined....thus no free will.
Just because it is known, does not make the decision forced.

Remember God Gave Sampson every opportunity to change his decision, but Sampson didn't


Gideon tested God twice before he made his decision.. God did not force the decision

Isaiah said God if I don't do it who will, God said If you don't do it there are 5000 in the city below that I will call and one of them will do it.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 01:13 AM   #43
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Of course you are right somehow, that everythings based on the butterflyeffect.

I assume that you have seen the movie Forrest Gump. In the movie there's a scene where you can see a feather flying through the wind.

i see life the same: when you make decisions you go a little left or a little right, but the beginning and the end is safe.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 12:32 PM   #44
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God, being omniscient, knows that I am going to be an atheist and knows that I am going to die and go to hell and he has known this since before my great grandfather was born.

Is there anything I can do to change that?

If yes, then God is not omniscient.

If no, then I have no free will.

Those are the only two choices.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 12:36 PM   #45
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God, being omniscient, knows that I am going to be an atheist and knows that I am going to die and go to hell and he has known this since before my great grandfather was born.

Is there anything I can do to change that?

If yes, then God is not omniscient.

If no, then I have no free will.

Those are the only two choices.
He knows you are going CHOOSE to be an Atheist, he does not MAKE YOU CHOOSE to be an atheist, he has the power to do so, but he does not.


Free will.

How do you know you might not one day in the future have a come to Jesus moment in your life and Choose to Love God in return, He knows that too. But he does not force that upon you either.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #46
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He knows you are going CHOOSE to be an Atheist, he does not MAKE YOU CHOOSE to be an atheist, he has the power to do so, but he does not.


Free will.

How do you know you might not one day in the future have a come to Jesus moment in your life and Choose to Love God in return, He knows that too. But he does not force that upon you either.
Sorry, god forcing my choice (or not forcing it) has NOTHING to do with the question.

If god knows that I am fated to hell and has known since before my grandfather was born, can I change what god knows? Can I make the decision that saves me from hell?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 01:02 PM   #47
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Sorry, god forcing my choice (or not forcing it) has NOTHING to do with the question.

If god knows that I am fated to hell and has known since before my grandfather was born, can I change what god knows? Can I make the decision that saves me from hell?
Unforced choice = Free will

has everything to do with the topic "Free Will"


free will



noun

noun: free will; noun: freewill



1. the ability to act at one's own discretion.

synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence More
"they take for granted their blessed right to free will"


•voluntarily, willingly, readily, freely, without reluctance, without compulsion, of one's own accord, of one's own volition, of one's own choosing
"I pursued a modeling career of my own free will"




adjective

adjective: free-will; adjective: free will; adjective: freewill



1.


(esp. of a donation) given readily; voluntary.
"free-will offerings"



God allowed me choose NOT to be a Christian, then allowed me to CHOOSE to be a Christian when I came to the point in time that I believed.

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Old February 27th, 2014, 01:07 PM   #48
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That is why I don't be little or disparage anyone's faith

God gave me the opportunity to make my on choice.

He just told me to tell people about him, and let them choose their own path in life.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #49
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if i read your thread in the context of the topic title you are arguing there is no such thing as free will. but I don't believe that is your intention.
theres allways
Spontaneous Decision
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Old February 27th, 2014, 02:36 PM   #50
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Not the same thing....

An omniscient God KNOWS the outcome before the event takes place...before any decision is made an omniscient God not only knows WHAT decisions will be made but knows the outcomes of those decisions...he knows the decisions that will be made as the result of those outcomes....

In short he knows everything....and that kind of knowledge means that there is nothing we can do to change those outcomes....we cannot change the decisions that will be made.
nwolfe, I think the issue here with your way of reasoning things, is what you seem to believe that reality is what exist and not what realize anything ..

it is easier to confuse reality with its source in meaning true existence, like thinking how any must be its reality fact .. but it is not right to think like that .. because existence is relative to truth positive values so only superior conscious are real, as being positive objective source .. but what is superior is free so by definition beyond reality concept even of itself true existence fact

existence must be true .. that is for sure

so it is always the nothing but freedom plus left conscious out alone the reference of what exist

that is why for sure reality could be worse happenings so definitely negative and inferior thing while existence is clearly living fact present still .. because freedom are still out consciously

so I guess, that is why the sense of forcing any free mean to appear doing something is a fact .. as to say how only true conscious means would always stay free and nothing else can exist

everything is known for sure but existence is never about knowledge when it is true .. it is about the fact of being free consciously then existing .. which means a lot more things then causality reasons of inferior beings that cant count as being existing at all

so in truth, it is like impossible to mean else freedom.. else existence is always objectively own self positive freedom increase out of all

the fact of knowing all ends is the fact of positive existence so freedom is real out of being true as conscious free state from everything and anything fact

that is why, the more one know the more it cant get related to else existence as the more it is a lonely present existence true while keeping realizing himself being sources and reality of existence alone

this also due to what existence must be true first .. so to what truth freedom exist .. so existence wont get to be invented and freedom would be objectively real .. as things becoming positive alone
then being conscious would be relatively free of what it realize objective freedom being as a positive fact

which would lead to being free as being positive self so to being positive source

then it would be easy to relate with else freedom .. through self true being realizations that would be of truth freedom source so by being positively present objectively right

the nature of being free positively is to the relative character of being necessarily true first

that is why the more someone conscious act relatively the more it would found itself objectively absolutely existing

so to be positive, conscious being must realize else superiority as being objectively existing

so how freedom function realistically as being superior base .. so a plus thing out of everything definitive value confirming it .. so what positive is actually the freedom superiority to infinite superiority of objective value

so positive is like existence superiority fact so what is definitely always superior absolutely so can be free which is known and supported in being true to stay positive always

positive truth is about freedom value that appreciate else true superiority to exist
so the freedom that recognize itself being true so as the real positive value beyond all superiority

again, existence must be true totally so freedom is the only way, what is never due to anything else as a constant thing

those things are like nothing when it is always relative to self own positive fact of being conscious always individually so in fact of being positive only alone

but to get there, it must be true first .. and it is unfortunate to see the force of evil wills dreaming that truth can never exist .. and how all relative beings refuse to give anything for free, so for true absolute right of being, obviously present and seen everywhere

Last edited by absols; February 27th, 2014 at 03:03 PM.
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