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Old November 5th, 2014, 10:56 PM   #71
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disappointing thread, instead of a discussion of free will we get a side step into the existence of God.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #72
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disappointing thread, instead of a discussion of free will we get a side step into the existence of God.
I guess that is the free will of the posters ..
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Old November 6th, 2014, 05:08 PM   #73
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Yes but KNOWLEDGE is NOT Control.

You make the Choice, God only has knowledge of that that choice will be.
I never said anything about control.

If I know the outcome of an event, even if I don't control the outcome, there is no "free will" the outcome is already set in stone.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #74
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I never said anything about control.

If I know the outcome of an event, even if I don't control the outcome, there is no "free will" the outcome is already set in stone.
Yes there is, just because I know you will jerk your hand from a hot stove top. Does not mean I made you put your hand on the hot stove top.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 09:10 PM   #75
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Yes there is, just because I know you will jerk your hand from a hot stove top. Does not mean I made you put your hand on the hot stove top.
Not the same thing.

The correct analogy would be if you knew I would jerk my hand away from a hot stove AND you knew I was going to touch it.

Knowing the outcome of an event means you KNOW. You aren't guessing I'm going to touch the stove. You aren't surmising, deducing, suspecting or hoping I'm going to do it. You KNOW and if you know I can't then decide to not touch the stove. If I can decide then you have no way of knowing until I actually do it.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #76
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Not the same thing.

The correct analogy would be if you knew I would jerk my hand away from a hot stove AND you knew I was going to touch it.

Knowing the outcome of an event means you KNOW. You aren't guessing I'm going to touch the stove. You aren't surmising, deducing, suspecting or hoping I'm going to do it. You KNOW and if you know I can't then decide to not touch the stove. If I can decide then you have no way of knowing until I actually do it.
Exactly the same thing knowledge of what an action, is not control over the action.

Now if God said from the beginning of time.. YOU WILL chose a over b..

is different than God allowing you to choose a or b, and knowing what that choice is.

One is the former is passive, the latter is active.

God does not do anythign to make you choose one way or the other...
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Old November 7th, 2014, 05:33 AM   #77
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Not the same thing.

The correct analogy would be if you knew I would jerk my hand away from a hot stove AND you knew I was going to touch it.

Knowing the outcome of an event means you KNOW. You aren't guessing I'm going to touch the stove. You aren't surmising, deducing, suspecting or hoping I'm going to do it. You KNOW and if you know I can't then decide to not touch the stove. If I can decide then you have no way of knowing until I actually do it.
yeah, the whole God discussion can be fun, and I've enjoyed running round those circles with you, but you haven't made one post discussing "free will".

do you believe we can choose?

assuming you believe we can, how is that possible? we are creatures of environment and heredity. and really heredity is just a subset of environment. so where does a physical mechanism that comes into play that would allow us to say we have a choice about anything?
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Old November 7th, 2014, 06:49 AM   #78
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in nature we have actions and reactions. everything that happens is the consequence of the actions that precede it.

everything is like a computer just processing a program, no decisions are made.

so how is free will possible?
Isaac Newton believed that if you could know the position and momentum of every particle in the universe you could, in principle, extrapolate the whole of history, past and future.

Newton, of course, never heard of Heisenberg. There aren't many serious scientists clinging to the idea of determinism.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 07:22 AM   #79
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ok, heisenberg, now we're getting close to actually discussing the topic.

is the uncertainty principle a real physical thing? or is it a mathematical band aid to cover over the insurmountable difficulties of complex math?
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Old November 7th, 2014, 08:58 AM   #80
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ok, heisenberg, now we're getting close to actually discussing the topic.

is the uncertainty principle a real physical thing? or is it a mathematical band aid to cover over the insurmountable difficulties of complex math?
On a purely practical level, uncertainty seems more like an engineering problem than a basic physical property. For example, to know the momentum of a particle with arbitrary precision, I would have to look at it in light of correspondingly short wavelength. Short wavelength means high frequency means high energy, so the more accurately I want to measure it, the harder I have to hit it, the more I move it, so the more accurately I know its momentum the less accurately I can know its position, because I moved it when I looked at it but that wasn't what I measured.
So that's a seemingly insurmountable technological limitation, but Heisenberg seems, to me anyway, to be saying that the product uncertainty of two complementary properties such as position and momentum always has a positive nonzero value and is inherent in the particle itself so that if one of those properties is known exactly the other can't be known at all because it doesn't have a definite objective value.
It's open to interpretation of course but to me the implication is that if you know precisely where it is now then it could be going anywhere next, and not just from your point of view but somehow from its own. The upshot is that while all the uncertainties statistically cancel out for large scale objects - so you know fairly accurately where the Moon is and where it's going, you can't know both those things at the time about an electron in an atom on the Moon, and it's not just because your instruments aren't precise enough.

As a practical example, you know that a given proportion of a given mass of a radioactive element will decay in a particular time, but you don't know which individual atoms will - and neither do they. You have statistical dependability on the large scale, but seeming randomness on the small.

Is it real or a mathematical fudge? I don't know, but if the universe really is as deterministic as Newton thought, then he was always, i.e. since the beginning of time, destined to think that. And I was destined to write this post using these exact words at this exact time, and that's incredibly difficult for me to contemplate because I feel certain I made a conscious decision. A few minutes ago this post didn't exist, and in a few seconds I will decide whether to hit the 'Submit' button. I don't think it's set in stone yet. I think I might hit the button or I might not. It's up to me.
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