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Old November 7th, 2014, 10:14 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
ok, heisenberg, now we're getting close to actually discussing the topic.

is the uncertainty principle a real physical thing? or is it a mathematical band aid to cover over the insurmountable difficulties of complex math?
(My bold)

Nah, if the topic is free will, Heisenberg was talking about events @ the subatomic level, as far a I know. He certainly didn't envision scaling up the effect to the metaphysical level. See Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for an exposition on the topic.

The article notes that the Heisenberg principle applies to wave-like systems. TMK, that omits free will.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #82
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can I choose, or can't I?

what if I can't decide? did I decide that?
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Old November 7th, 2014, 10:47 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
(My bold)

Nah, if the topic is free will, Heisenberg was talking about events @ the subatomic level, as far a I know. He certainly didn't envision scaling up the effect to the metaphysical level. See Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for an exposition on the topic.

The article notes that the Heisenberg principle applies to wave-like systems. TMK, that omits free will.
However, the reason I brought it up is because Heisenberg contradicts determinism, and determinism contradicts free will, so it's kind of linked to the topic, if perhaps a bit tenuously.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 11:32 AM   #84
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However, the reason I brought it up is because Heisenberg contradicts determinism, and determinism contradicts free will, so it's kind of linked to the topic, if perhaps a bit tenuously.
it is not unreasonable to propose that within the unmapped reaches of a biological brain there is some quantum effect that provides the room in which a free will choice can happen.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #85
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However, the reason I brought it up is because Heisenberg contradicts determinism, and determinism contradicts free will, so it's kind of linked to the topic, if perhaps a bit tenuously.
(My bold)

Yah. Well, it's funny to watch the conversation dance around free will, & we even had a lament that the discussion turned to the existence of God. Which it has to do; what we're dancing around here is the question of evil.

If we have the correct definition of God - omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc. - then it's v. hard to dissociate God from the presence of evil in the World. Aquinas & a lot of other theologians & philosophers have spilled oceans of ink going around & around on this question - I doubt that we're going to get to any satisfactory solution beyond what's been done by the scholastics.

There's the possibility that we have the wrong definition of God - maybe It's finite, or not perfect in some aspect of creating the World, etc. But like many other of these value discussions, you can't posit a middle ground - it effectively has been taken off the table.

& so we go around & around, always reaching for a brass ring that's just out of reach. My suggestion would be to get off the merry-go-round, & try addressing problems that admit of solution.

Something simple - by comparison - like fixing the human problems of Haiti, for instance, or settling the Palestine/Israel issue. You know, just for starters. Then we can get to the big issues, & maybe work our way up. Or the World may simply end in the meantime, obviating the need/desire ...
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Old November 7th, 2014, 12:10 PM   #86
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what we're dancing around here is the question of evil
Not really. If there's no such thing as free will then the concept of evil is redundant, but I don't think it's the core issue rather it would be one of many similarly useless concepts; desire, remorse, joy, medicine, art, procreation, altruism, cruelty... surely all meaningless to a genuine fatalist.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 02:32 PM   #87
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yeah, the whole God discussion can be fun, and I've enjoyed running round those circles with you, but you haven't made one post discussing "free will".

do you believe we can choose?

assuming you believe we can, how is that possible? we are creatures of environment and heredity. and really heredity is just a subset of environment. so where does a physical mechanism that comes into play that would allow us to say we have a choice about anything?
Yes we can choose, if we cannot choose there would be no reason for the Great Commission.. if there was no choice Jesus would not have commanded us to GO AND TELL, ... because if it was set in stone... it would be a waste of time.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 04:31 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
yeah, the whole God discussion can be fun, and I've enjoyed running round those circles with you, but you haven't made one post discussing "free will".

do you believe we can choose?

assuming you believe we can, how is that possible? we are creatures of environment and heredity. and really heredity is just a subset of environment. so where does a physical mechanism that comes into play that would allow us to say we have a choice about anything?
The human brain is complex beyond imagination. There have been tests to indicate that free will is just an illusion.

I don't know if we have free will. Everything from my experience tells me that I do so I assume everyone else does as well.

I do know that if there is an omniscient god then, by definition, it is impossible to have free will.
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Old November 7th, 2014, 05:01 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The human brain is complex beyond imagination. There have been tests to indicate that free will is just an illusion.

I don't know if we have free will. Everything from my experience tells me that I do so I assume everyone else does as well.

I do know that if there is an omniscient god then, by definition, it is impossible to have free will.
i prefer to believe i have a free will. if everything was fate i would find that very discouraging.

so do i choose not to be discouraged, or is that just the way i was meant to be?
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Old November 7th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The human brain is complex beyond imagination. There have been tests to indicate that free will is just an illusion.

I don't know if we have free will. Everything from my experience tells me that I do so I assume everyone else does as well.

I do know that if there is an omniscient god then, by definition, it is impossible to have free will.
lets see will I cheat on my wife today

or not.

hmm I have the free will choice to do either.

no it is not an illusion.
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