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Old October 4th, 2017, 05:44 AM   #21
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A great many people work hard, but capitalism steals all their money. I'm for a democratic world government, under which any minor group that wants it gets a reasonable degree of self-government.
That has never been true. America became the greatest nation in the annals of history with nothing more than a constitutional Republic and the ability of the individual to create his / her piece of the American pie.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 05:47 AM   #22
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That has never been true. America became the greatest nation in the annals of history with nothing more than a constitutional Republic and the ability of the individual to create his / her piece of the American pie.
I missed that. How come your Big-Business government allowed it? What year was that - the bit after the French troops left?
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Old October 4th, 2017, 07:33 AM   #23
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I missed that. How come your Big-Business government allowed it? What year was that - the bit after the French troops left?
At about the same time our new Republic was being formed, there were globalist organizations coming into existence. Still, our form of government prevailed. It has been until fairly recent years that the de facto (illegal) government has overtaken the de jure Republic.

People need to bear in mind that in its history the United States of America has committed more lives on the battlefield fighting for Freedom and Liberty than any single nation in history. We've sent out more missionaries, rebuilt more countries, and given more money to help the needy and the oppressed than any nation in recorded history.

America has created more wealth and jobs than anywhere else and, until recent years, America has been the place that every person, regardless of what country they were in wanted to come to.

In 1620 The Mayflower arrived in America with 102 passengers. The crew wound up staying the first winter in America before sailing home. At the end of that winter, half the crew of the Mayflower had died along with all but 53 colonists. And from those surviving colonists our forefathers began building a nation that was the envy of the world.

The land my forefathers left has less than half as many people living there as there are in the United States. Our standard of living is higher and despite all its shortcomings, you can still get most anything in abundance in America.

The entire world knows what America is except for the current generation of the posterity that founded this nation. When the blacks wanted to politicize their fight against the whites, they called the tv series "Eyes on the Prize." I found that interesting because most politicians up to the time of Ronald Reagan would invoke the words of John Winthrop's 1630 sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" and his words about the shining city on a hill ( a reference to Matthew 5: 14.) Even Ted Cruz and James Comey have referenced it.

Most historically astute observers recognize America as the beacon of Liberty; the shining city on a hill; the New Jerusalem of the Bible - you know, the city without walls (Zechariah 2 : 4) and our history shows what a nation can do.

I would agree that America is dominated by big money today. Whether left or right; Democrat or Republican; conservative or liberal, the average American allows themselves to be dictated to by big money. Corporate greed feeds off our inability to divest ourselves of the love of money and so we become slaves rather than independent individuals that can provide for their own sustenance.

It may take a war on our own shores in order to wake people up. Then again, history is cyclical so after we've suffered through tyranny and oppression - the kind globalism will bring, we will rise up again and begin the fight all over.

From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 08:51 AM   #24
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That has never been true. America became the greatest nation in the annals of history with nothing more than a constitutional Republic and the ability of the individual to create his / her piece of the American pie.
That, and, through genocide, access to a continent's worth of natural resources
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Old October 4th, 2017, 09:42 AM   #25
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That, and, through genocide, access to a continent's worth of natural resources
Give 90% of your wealth to the Amerindians and I will too. Pick the reservation of your choice and make us both honorary members free to go on the reservation any time we want telling ghost stories and doing the ghost dance. BYOB

Last edited by imaginethat; October 4th, 2017 at 01:24 PM.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 10:07 AM   #26
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That, and, through genocide, access to a continent's worth of natural resources
Don't you think that's a weak argument? In every other country that has been to war, we recognize the right of people to take by conquest.

Our policies in the Mid East are connected to the degree of terrorism we're subjected to. Yet many Americans support the right of the Israelis to exist at the expense of the native population they drove out to be there.

Americans were not the first to be involved with slavery, but they were among the first to abolish it. The colonists did not invent the notion of right of conquest, but they did as other countries did and fought to the land. It's acceptable in every country except the United States. I don't quite get the double standard applied to Americans, especially the posterity of the founding fathers - except that it seems to aimed against them because of WHO they are rather than any pretend injustice that has happened on every continent on this earth.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 01:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
Don't you think that's a weak argument? In every other country that has been to war, we recognize the right of people to take by conquest.

Our policies in the Mid East are connected to the degree of terrorism we're subjected to. Yet many Americans support the right of the Israelis to exist at the expense of the native population they drove out to be there.

Americans were not the first to be involved with slavery, but they were among the first to abolish it. The colonists did not invent the notion of right of conquest, but they did as other countries did and fought to the land. It's acceptable in every country except the United States. I don't quite get the double standard applied to Americans, especially the posterity of the founding fathers - except that it seems to aimed against them because of WHO they are rather than any pretend injustice that has happened on every continent on this earth.
No I don't think it's a weak argument to point out that without a continent's worth of resources to exploit, courtesy of genocide, who knows how "great" the US would have been.

Speaking to the double standards you mention, when a nation is founded upon this principle:
We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Expect closer and more critical scrutiny of national behavior.

And, speaking to your "everybody does it" defense of genocide conducted by white Christians, my mom's counter to that would be: Just because Johnny jumps off a cliff, does that mean you're going to, too?
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Old October 4th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #28
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No I don't think it's a weak argument to point out that without a continent's worth of resources to exploit, courtesy of genocide, who knows how "great" the US would have been.

Speaking to the double standards you mention, when a nation is founded upon this principle:
We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Expect closer and more critical scrutiny of national behavior.

And, speaking to your "everybody does it" defense of genocide conducted by white Christians, my mom's counter to that would be: Just because Johnny jumps off a cliff, does that mean you're going to, too?
I made no such analogy. I pointed out to an historical truth. You cannot justify our presence in places like the Middle East protecting the Israelis without employing a double standard.

The process is either acceptable OR it is not. You're seeking to apply a double standard to the people who built this nation.

In some instances the whites bought land from the native populations. Other times they entered into treaties and the whites forced the Indians out with the consent of the Indians - in the same, identical manner that the posterity of the founding fathers is giving America away to 780,000 foreigners via legal (sic) immigration - most of which come from non-white, non-Christian countries that don't embrace our concept of Liberty.

Let's mention the Declaration of Independence and explain it once again:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Within a year after the ratification of the Constitution, our laws were designed so that only whites could be citizens. Yet people poured in from every corner of the globe to enjoy Freedom, Liberty and economic opportunities. And we guaranteed unalienable Rights. I think you're beginning to fall for the trap that unalienable Rights is conflated to mean citizenship. Let me assure you, the concepts are WORLDS apart.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #29
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That, and, through genocide, access to a continent's worth of natural resources
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Old October 4th, 2017, 09:23 PM   #30
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I made no such analogy. I pointed out to an historical truth. You cannot justify our presence in places like the Middle East protecting the Israelis without employing a double standard.

The process is either acceptable OR it is not. You're seeking to apply a double standard to the people who built this nation.

In some instances the whites bought land from the native populations. Other times they entered into treaties and the whites forced the Indians out with the consent of the Indians - in the same, identical manner that the posterity of the founding fathers is giving America away to 780,000 foreigners via legal (sic) immigration - most of which come from non-white, non-Christian countries that don't embrace our concept of Liberty.

Let's mention the Declaration of Independence and explain it once again:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Within a year after the ratification of the Constitution, our laws were designed so that only whites could be citizens. Yet people poured in from every corner of the globe to enjoy Freedom, Liberty and economic opportunities. And we guaranteed unalienable Rights. I think you're beginning to fall for the trap that unalienable Rights is conflated to mean citizenship. Let me assure you, the concepts are WORLDS apart.
I don't justify our presence in the ME. The Zionists can take care of themselves, and any time that means screwing us over in the process, they'll do it. Every time. So, no double standard is involved here.

The process of killing and conquest for a long time was "acceptable," meaning no one talked back to the victors. Stop and think for a minute discollector. Unalienable rights bestowed by the Creator and killing and conquest cannot co-exist. Pretty clearly, in killing and conquest somebody's unalienable rights are getting toasted.

Your history of the relationship between the Native Americans and the white Americans is beyond rose-tinted. I'm officially a member of the Cherokee nation. I've studied our history but I don't think you have. The Cherokees, along with the other members of the Five Civilized Tribes, were roundly and royally screwed, e.g. The Trail of Tears.

Unalienable rights are bestowed by the Creator. Citizenship is bestowed by the created. Are we good on that?

The human race MUST evolve, or die. As I mentioned, the process of killing and conquest was acceptable for a long time, but those times are gone.
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Last edited by imaginethat; October 4th, 2017 at 09:25 PM.
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