Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Philosophy and Religion > Philosophy

Philosophy For discussion about general and fundamental problems connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language


Thanks Tree30Thanks
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 19th, 2017, 09:40 PM   #41
Bee-boo-be-bop
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 24,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Rights are given by the government.
If you doubt it, look at what has been put forth to show the origin of rights, laws, constitutions and court opinions.
That is how a government works.
There are places in the world that have different governments, and there, people have a different set of rights.
Sabcat is offline  
Old October 19th, 2017, 09:47 PM   #42
Bee-boo-be-bop
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 24,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
I can see why you might believe that.
But the facts don't support your belief.

The reality is, that rights depend upon the rule of law, which is dependent on the government in power at your location.

you have a different set of rights in North Korea than you do in Saudi Arabia, or Kansas.

And citing court decisions is using government to secure rights.
No government, no courts, no rights.
All people are born free governments take away freedom not grant it.Some governments just take away more than others.

I can see how you may get that backwards though.
Thanks from discollector

Last edited by Sabcat; October 19th, 2017 at 09:49 PM.
Sabcat is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 06:00 AM   #43
Senior Member
 
iolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Rhondda
Posts: 1,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by discollector View Post
The presuppositional foundation America was built upon is that your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be) bestows on you unalienable Rights. These are known as First Principles.

The object of our government was to enter into a Social Compact and government, in the form of a Republican government, would guarantee those Rights.

The man the founders most quoted was John Locke. According to my research:

"Locke explained that in a state of nature men and women were free to pursue and defend there own interests, which resulted in a brutal state of war. To escape this warfare, individuals established government to secure the peace. Locke noted that there could be “no freedom” without a Social Compact of laws, because “liberty is to be free from restraint and violence from others; which cannot be where there is no law.”

Unlike his English rival Thomas Hobbes, Locke argued that because governments were instituted to protect the unalienable rights of individuals, they had no power other than what was necessary to protect such rights. In other words, a free and just government was necessarily a limited government
."

John Locke, the Social Compact, and the Founding Fathers
Historically correct - but, as you know, there never was a social contract and the powerful will take away all the rights we're not prepared to fight for. If you believe in God you know he tends to help those who help themselves, and it is our job to stop them helping themselves out of our pockets.
Thanks from discollector
iolo is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 07:32 AM   #44
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Georgia
Posts: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by iolo View Post
Historically correct - but, as you know, there never was a social contract and the powerful will take away all the rights we're not prepared to fight for. If you believe in God you know he tends to help those who help themselves, and it is our job to stop them helping themselves out of our pockets.
There are some theories that float around regarding that, but the Constitution Society provides some interesting info along those lines:

The Social Contract and Constitutional Republics

In my view, contrary to everything the liberals are posting here, if you look at all the words of the founding fathers and the earliest court decisions, you find that America was founded on the presupposition that each of us has natural, absolute, unalienable, God given Rights that the government did not grant us and is legally powerless to take from us.

Of course, any idiot with an IQ higher than their shoe size realizes that the government has the power to take your Rights. The liberals want to hijack the conversation and make it about that, but they miss the point. I too, can take away all of your natural, absolute, unalienable, God given Rights. I have the power to do that, but I lack the authority. The same holds true for the government.

Where this conversation is hopefully going to go is, since we had those Rights, what happened? How did we go 180 degrees opposite of what the founding fathers intended AND the earliest courts ruled? The liberals, having the powers that be on their side don't want us to have that conversation.
discollector is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 07:58 AM   #45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: In a House
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by discollector View Post
There are some theories that float around regarding that, but the Constitution Society provides some interesting info along those lines:

The Social Contract and Constitutional Republics

In my view, contrary to everything the liberals are posting here, if you look at all the words of the founding fathers and the earliest court decisions, you find that America was founded on the presupposition that each of us has natural, absolute, unalienable, God given Rights that the government did not grant us and is legally powerless to take from us.

Of course, any idiot with an IQ higher than their shoe size realizes that the government has the power to take your Rights. The liberals want to hijack the conversation and make it about that, but they miss the point. I too, can take away all of your natural, absolute, unalienable, God given Rights. I have the power to do that, but I lack the authority. The same holds true for the government.

Where this conversation is hopefully going to go is, since we had those Rights, what happened? How did we go 180 degrees opposite of what the founding fathers intended AND the earliest courts ruled? The liberals, having the powers that be on their side don't want us to have that conversation.
Then how can the Federal Govt put to death someone for treason, espionage, murder, etc. The states can also do it. They have done this since the inception of the US and long before dating back to 1608 and the first colony (Capital Punishment - Death Sentence - Captain George Kendall in the Jamestown colony of Virginia in 1608.), what makes you think they don't have the authority to do so, especially when one is condemned by a jury of his peers?

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/part-i-...-death-penalty
Thanks from Hollywood

Last edited by TreeDoc; October 20th, 2017 at 08:04 AM.
TreeDoc is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 08:10 AM   #46
Senior Member
 
Hollywood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Memphis, Tn.
Posts: 20,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeDoc View Post
Then how can the Federal Govt put to death someone for treason, espionage, murder, etc. The states can also do it. They have done this since the inception of the US and long before dating back to 1608 and the first colony (Capital Punishment - Death Sentence - Captain George Kendall in the Jamestown colony of Virginia in 1608.), what makes you think they don't have the authority to do so, especially when one is condemned by a jury of his peers?

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/part-i-...-death-penalty
And of course those same man made governments can seize your money, your property legally.
Why some RS conservatives even routinely refer to lawful taxes as theft.
Hollywood is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #47
Mayor of Realville
 
webguy4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 15,519
Your rights exist regardless of your governments willingness to suppress or protect them. When a Right has been supressed that means your goverment has failed in its responsibilities or that a crime has been committed.
Thanks from discollector
webguy4 is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 08:19 AM   #48
Mayor of Realville
 
webguy4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 15,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
So? Those words are in the DOI, which was, as the name implies, nothing more that a "letter of intent" to old King George. Had the signers of that document all been immediately hung by British troops those words would be as irrelevant as graffiti spray painted on a warehouse wall.

AFTER we had won our revolt came the Constitution which forms the basis of our laws & legal system.
You call me when a law is struck down by the SCOTUS for being "counter to the DOI" rather than UNCONSTUTIONAL.
The Declaration of Independence stands on its own and its enforcement method is outlined in the document. When your government fails to protect your rights it is your responsibility to take up arms against it.
Thanks from discollector
webguy4 is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 08:24 AM   #49
Senior Member
 
Hollywood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Memphis, Tn.
Posts: 20,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
The Declaration of Independence stands on its own and its enforcement method is outlined in the document. When your government fails to protect your rights it is your responsibility to take up arms against it.
You fail to refute, or even intelligently dispute, anything in my post.
Hollywood is offline  
Old October 20th, 2017, 08:25 AM   #50
Senior Member
 
Hollywood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Memphis, Tn.
Posts: 20,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
Your rights exist regardless of your governments willingness to suppress or protect them. When a Right has been supressed that means your goverment has failed in its responsibilities or that a crime has been committed.
A 'right" you cannot or will not defend is meaningless.
Hollywood is offline  
Closed Thread

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Philosophy and Religion > Philosophy

Tags
nature, rights



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is it nature or LongWinded Philosophy 3 September 13th, 2015 03:47 PM
Clinton, Obama Promote Gay Rights As Human Rights Around The World Mom Gay and Lesbian Rights 22 December 8th, 2011 02:40 PM
Gay Animals in Nature tristanrobin Gay and Lesbian Rights 14 April 19th, 2010 05:12 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.