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Old April 22nd, 2018, 08:33 AM   #11
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Isn't god giving Moses a couple of stone tablets on a mountain top a miracle?
Are you serious or being cynical? The Aztecs had the same basic commandments and I am confident they can be found in the belief systems of all successful groups, minus the need to worship one god above all others, and perhaps without a focus on the father. But the don't steal, lie, etc. is common to all. And not even if that stone tablet dropped on my foot I would NOT believe a god made it.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 09:56 AM   #12
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Judaism seems to value knowledge, even just for its own sake. This includes languages & cultures - throughout Western Civilization history the more assimilated Jews (speaking - & reading & writing - the dominant language[s], participating in the dominant culture[s]) have been @ the forefront of a lot of advances in culture & science & technology. & literature & the social sciences, but also medicine, law, finance. I don't know if the wide exposure to languages & cultures helps explain the numbers of Jews (even if non-practicing) lauded for advances in sciences & letters.

I think second & third languages are good things in & of themselves - we can escape the worldview we grew up, if we only grew up in one. Or @ least learn to view that upbringing with fresh eyes - a useful thing in the World, where not everyone shares our culture, language nor ideals. As such, exposure to other ways & means helps us to think outside the box, as it were. & the sides of the box can be very confining.
I am so glad you said that because I can not speak of Judaism without a burning desire to mention its stories appear to be plagiarized Sumerian stories and there is reason to believe the tribe of Abraham was originally the people who followed Amenhotep IV or Akhenaten as he renamed himself. Akhenaten stressed family values and the importance of learning. It is thought, when Akhenaten's holy city was torn down and buried because of hatred of Akhenaten and his new religion, these people fled to Ur. Ur had been a Sumerian city and the people likely researched the archives of Ur, blending Sumerian stories of the creation and flood with their belief of one god. That is everything you say is true of Judaism may have been so when they worshipped “the Aten” in Akhenaten's holy city.

What you say of the importance of learning another language is so true! Every culture needs psychoanalysis for the same reasons individuals do, and the culture of the West is built on Greek and Latin languages that are also the foundation of Christianity. The root of the word of "human" is "moist soil" we carry the Christian belief with us even when we are not Christian because it is embedded in our language.

Without understanding when we add an "e" to "moral" we get "morale" that high spirited feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing, we can not understand our democracy and liberty. That makes us crazy because we are living with ideas of truth that are now built upon forgotten reasons for those beliefs, and we are ready to kill for what we belief without a sound understanding of the belief.

We are speaking of consciousness, right, and how language can limit or expand our consciousness or even make us crazy.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 05:09 PM   #13
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Language is a kind of map

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...

What you say of the importance of learning another language is so true! Every culture needs psychoanalysis for the same reasons individuals do, and the culture of the West is built on Greek and Latin languages that are also the foundation of Christianity. The root of the word of "human" is "moist soil" we carry the Christian belief with us even when we are not Christian because it is embedded in our language.

...

We are speaking of consciousness, right, and how language can limit or expand our consciousness or even make us crazy.
& of course the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, & others) underlay Christianity too. The Old Testament starts in Hebrew, I assume. The Western Church turned away from the Semitic languages fairly soon - the Eastern Church stayed with the languages - & speakers of Greek & the Semitic languages were still current in the Eastern Church, too. One reason that the Eastern Church didn't have the fierce doctrinal battles of the Western - they always had better documents & speakers & translators of the Greek & Semitic languages than the Western.

Yah, language is a useful filter for input & a guide for thinking. One would be hard pressed to express a thought that there is no vocabulary for. You just have to bear in mind that the everyday tool may not serve for extraordinary situations.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 10:17 PM   #14
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Wow, I sure as blazes wish people in science forums appreciated the notion of stepping into the unknown. More times than not, the folks in a science forum are acting like the church of old, controlling even what can be thought about. They have their truths, and by god, no one better commit the heresy of questioning their truths.

"Unreal property", that is the space between my ears.

Perhaps we have taken the notion of property rights too far? It is nice to get paid for writing a book or inventing something, but perhaps there should be limits on these rights? Thoughts never stand alone, but come out of knowledge that has increased for centuries. They have a universal quality. How tightly can we cling to an awareness as ours and ours alone? Of what value are these ideas if they are not shared? If you knew how to cure cancer, would you keep this cure to yourself unless you paid millions of dollars for it? Some may, but I think most of us freely give away information for the good that information may do.

If no one will do good just for the desire to do good than perhaps we should pay children to attend school? I mean can we think on this? Do we want to raise children to do the right thing because we share this planet and life is better when we do the right thing, or do we want to prepare them for industry because industry needs programmed humans?

I can think of a few different ways to go with what you said. Personally, I thrill at the idea of a universe being more than the individual.

And if my spell check had its way, this discussion would not be possible. I hate what spell check and "technological correctness" has done to our language and limits of thought.
Anyone who does not believe in The Big Bang is a crackpot, Alan Guth. Tell Mr. Guth that I am a crackpot.

I troubleshoot any and every problem. There is the top bottom and bottom up, and divide in half and shotgun. Divide in half is the only legitimate way to troubleshoot.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 08:06 AM   #15
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& of course the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, & others) underlay Christianity too. The Old Testament starts in Hebrew, I assume. The Western Church turned away from the Semitic languages fairly soon - the Eastern Church stayed with the languages - & speakers of Greek & the Semitic languages were still current in the Eastern Church, too. One reason that the Eastern Church didn't have the fierce doctrinal battles of the Western - they always had better documents & speakers & translators of the Greek & Semitic languages than the Western.

Yah, language is a useful filter for input & a guide for thinking. One would be hard pressed to express a thought that there is no vocabulary for. You just have to bear in mind that the everyday tool may not serve for extraordinary situations.
How interesting that you know about the language and Christian religious division. It is explained in the different DVD's of ancient history I have been watching. How did you come to know of it? Why do you even think of the difficulty of being aware of a thought without a word for it? I don't think many people have that awareness.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 08:18 AM   #16
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Anyone who does not believe in The Big Bang is a crackpot, Alan Guth. Tell Mr. Guth that I am a crackpot.

I troubleshoot any and every problem. There is the top bottom and bottom up, and divide in half and shotgun. Divide in half is the only legitimate way to troubleshoot.
I am not visualizing a top bottom. Bottom up is easy to see. I can see divide in half, and my goodness, shotgun scatters the whole thing.

What does it mean to divide in half to troubleshoot? I think about how we might resolve the problem of homelessness. If we had half as many homeless people it might seem easier to resolve the problem. But how would "divide in half" help me figure out why am "check engine" light is on?
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Old April 24th, 2018, 09:32 AM   #17
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There's a word for it

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How interesting that you know about the language and Christian religious division. It is explained in the different DVD's of ancient history I have been watching. How did you come to know of it? Why do you even think of the difficulty of being aware of a thought without a word for it? I don't think many people have that awareness.
I've always read voraciously. & I was deathly ill as a child, couldn't see other kids (I was infectious). & so comics & TV - this was in the dark ages, there wasn't much programming for children - & so I read & read. & played solitaire, learned to shuffle cards & so on, word games.

I grew up in the Southwest - where Spanish, Navajo, Hopi & other languages coexist with English. Navajo is having something of a resurgence, it may be making a comeback - if enough children learn the language & culture. The indigenous languages in the US are mostly dying - there aren't enough new speakers typically to make up the shortfall as the old-timers succumb to time.

From there it's a hop & a skip to the similar situations in the ancient Middle East, as Judaism arose, Christianity split off, & social cohesion & politics differentiated the various credos. Similar scenarios played out in the Balkans in the run-up to WWI (& still today – see Kosovo). In the US now, I think we’re seeing some of the same centrifugal forces – home, family, church, work, education pulling away from what should be a common understanding. It’s dangerous for the US – we’ve always been a political creedal state – not based strictly on religion, race, nor even ethnicity these days.

I think anyone that reads widely enough is aware of the issues of language versus thought, & how language structures (& so imposes some limits on) thought. The early Christianity experience in the 200s & 300s CE is a straight-line extrapolation of the situation on the ground in the US Southwest. But I don’t know if that situation attracts the attention of readers or not. Certainly the information isn’t hidden – but it’s typically presented in Trump-speak (in the case of Spanish, @ least) as some kind of invasion of God-given lands & attributes. Amusing, of course, because Spain was in the forefront in the Americas, & the Spanish were there in (what's now) the US SW to welcome the US citizens when they finally showed up; but there you have it.

Yah, the French have a phrase for it – the mot juste – just the right word for any given situation. That’s no guarantee you’ll come up with the right word, of course. But awareness is the beginning …
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Old April 25th, 2018, 06:16 AM   #18
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I am wondering if all independent thinkers were isolated as children? I was not isolated as you, but by choice. I withdrew when I was put in a day care center. For me that was like being orphaned and defiantly the cause of my leftist leaning. I always thought my peers were like animals rather than civilized beings. I was attracted to my elders and I am, soically, doing much better now that my peers are elders. However, I have often been disappointed by the failure of people at all ages to develop intellectually. I do not understand that. For humans to not desire knowledge and to resolve their problems, is as odd as ducks not flying and swimming.

Considering we are covering the world with our thought patterns and language and institutions, it seems extremely important that we take responsibility for the effect we have on the world. We have serious problems of our own and it is a bit horrifying to me that we procede with our efforts of dominating the world, although we can not resolve our own problems!

Please, I didn't expect this thread to take this turn, but now that we are here, can you give me any words that relieve how awful I feel about what we are doing around the world, considering our failure to resolve our problems?
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Old April 25th, 2018, 08:03 AM   #19
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I am wondering if all independent thinkers were isolated as children? I was not isolated as you, but by choice. I withdrew when I was put in a day care center. For me that was like being orphaned and defiantly the cause of my leftist leaning. I always thought my peers were like animals rather than civilized beings. I was attracted to my elders and I am, soically, doing much better now that my peers are elders. However, I have often been disappointed by the failure of people at all ages to develop intellectually. I do not understand that. For humans to not desire knowledge and to resolve their problems, is as odd as ducks not flying and swimming.

Considering we are covering the world with our thought patterns and language and institutions, it seems extremely important that we take responsibility for the effect we have on the world. We have serious problems of our own and it is a bit horrifying to me that we procede with our efforts of dominating the world, although we can not resolve our own problems!

Please, I didn't expect this thread to take this turn, but now that we are here, can you give me any words that relieve how awful I feel about what we are doing around the world, considering our failure to resolve our problems?
Yes, there’s probably a couple of good papers that could be based on social or physical isolation in children, & its impact on their cognitive skills. Yah, in either case, I think children adapt – they become more self-directed, & likely learn to read or play music – they learn to focus either on their environment or on some skill they can practice & develop. But not everyone does – or they don’t have any resources (books, magazines, newspapers, games, cards) nor a mentor to interact with.

Yes, Western Civilization is in a lot of the World, & the byproducts of the Industrial Revolution actually are everywhere. We only have the one planet – for now – we need to keep it healthy for everyone’s sake – including our own progeny.

The struggle to redirect our civilization’s efforts – technological, economic, political, social – from the current hodgepodge to something more sustainable & more just to more people – will be difficult. For now, I hone my skills & participate in book club & library – reading in the areas of concern. The better to advocate for reasonable solutions. Yah, we’ll have to keep an eye on the political process & nudge it to produce better outcomes. In the meantime, we cultivate our relationships – partially as social outlet, & partially to find potential allies in the work on the World. We’re going to need everyone who has the slightest interest in the future of the World.

We do what we can, & work towards a better tomorrow.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 08:20 AM   #20
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I am sure some of us are here to connect with those we can allie with to make the world a better place and some are here because it is their intention to engage in verbal conflict and endulge in abusive lanuage. "To each their own said the lady as she kissed the cow". Certainly we share this planet with both types of people.

No one responded to the inspirational you tub I posted in thread for discussing
Watch this every morning

The speaker makes the same points you have made. Needing to find people we can connect with is one of them. But he also uses math to explain how we can change the world if we can move 10 people in the right direction and each of them moves 10 in the right the direction, and these people each move 10 more people, in a short time millions of people have been moved in the right direction.

Sometimes we don't realize how successful we are because we don't see immediate results, or we may never know how we have affected someone. A farmer cannot be sure which seeds will grow and which ones will not, so the farmer sows many seeds. Like the farmer, we cannot be sure our seeds of thought will land on fertile soil and take root and grow, but we can be sure we to sow them.

Which reminds me, I need to act on our local middle school's call for volunteers to have lunch with middle school students and give them special attention for that short period of time.

One more thing about our technology. We began with no experience of the reality we created and unrealistic expectations. We have progressed a lot and need to be positive about this, while also make adjustments based on experience and new knowledge. I think the biggest problem we have today is the negativity. If I were the genii in a bottle who gave man all these wonderful things I would be very perplexed by his displeasure.

Last edited by Athena; April 26th, 2018 at 08:25 AM.
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