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Old April 26th, 2018, 08:34 AM   #21
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Isn't god giving Moses a couple of stone tablets on a mountain top a miracle?
Little knowledge is dangerous.

Solomon married the Queen of Sheba!

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Old April 27th, 2018, 05:31 AM   #22
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& of course the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, & others) underlay Christianity too. The Old Testament starts in Hebrew, I assume. The Western Church turned away from the Semitic languages fairly soon - the Eastern Church stayed with the languages - & speakers of Greek & the Semitic languages were still current in the Eastern Church, too. One reason that the Eastern Church didn't have the fierce doctrinal battles of the Western - they always had better documents & speakers & translators of the Greek & Semitic languages than the Western.

Yah, language is a useful filter for input & a guide for thinking. One would be hard pressed to express a thought that there is no vocabulary for. You just have to bear in mind that the everyday tool may not serve for extraordinary situations.
It would be interesting to know how far languages affect thought outside their own use. Like many languages, Cymraeg divides the colours green and blue at a different point in the spectrum from English, and nowadays, alas, outside Patagonia everyone who speaks Cymraeg also speaks English - yet I have yet to meet anyone who is aware of the difference.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 06:34 AM   #23
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It would be interesting to know how far languages affect thought outside their own use. Like many languages, Cymraeg divides the colours green and blue at a different point in the spectrum from English, and nowadays, alas, outside Patagonia everyone who speaks Cymraeg also speaks English - yet I have yet to meet anyone who is aware of the difference.
How about gender and language? Different countries handle this differently.


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https://www.druide.com/en/reports/me...neuter-animals
Why are ships frequently referred to as she and her? This question points to the phenomenon of using creative gender assignment on nouns in English. This article will provide an outline of gender in language and the creative use of gender in English.

Unlike many modern languages, such as German and the Romance languages, modern English does not employ grammatical gender, where each noun is assigned masculine, feminine or neuter gender regardless of whether the noun has a biological sex—for example, table is feminine in French (la table) and masculine in German (ein Tisch).
This is an interesting difference...

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https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic...der-in-arabic/

Words referring to humans can have masculine and feminize forms, e.g. (موظف) “employee” is masculine, while (موظفة) “employee” is feminine. We change a noun from masculine to feminine by adding the suffixes; (ة) “ta’ marbuta”, e.g. (أستاذ) “teacher” is masculine, while (أستاذة) “teacher” is feminine.

Adjectives must have the same gender of the nouns they describe, e.g. “new employee” can be either (موظف جديد) masculine, or (موظفة جديدة) feminine. Both the noun and the adjective must have the same gender. Likewise, gender of words referring to inanimate objects must agree with the gender of adjectives used to describe them, e.g. (كرسيقديم) “an old chair” both the noun and adjective are masculine, and (طاولة قديمة) “an old table” both the noun and adjective are feminine.
With such language habits, Arab countries might be far more challenged to have a society that is not divided by gender. It seems to me, if one speaks Arabic, sex would be on a person's mind much more. Of course, such a language habit would translate into cultural norms.

When our English speaking nation used the pronoun "he" and never used the pronoun "she" unless speaking of a particular woman, and the postman was surely a man, we were not close to the gender equality we have today.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 08:02 AM   #24
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How about gender and language? Different countries handle this differently.

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...

Unlike many modern languages, such as German and the Romance languages, modern English does not employ grammatical gender, where each noun is assigned masculine, feminine or neuter gender regardless of whether the noun has a biological sex—for example, table is feminine in French (la table) and masculine in German (ein Tisch).

...
Yep, language & gender is a real thicket. One of the items of interest: Britain had Celtic languages & populations, when Rome & Latin language came calling. Then Britain & France (French, a Romance language) interacted for a long time. This culminated in the Norman invasion, with French (& Latin - a holdover among the educated & scribes & clergy).

There's a fair amount of analysis of Shakespeare that holds that he took advantage of the British versus French versus Latin vocabularies & oral/written structures to enrich his plays & poetry. It's an interesting read.

Did Shakespeare (& by extension, UK) in some ways imitate the Jewish culture (a home language, a legal/court language, plus whatever vernacular was spoken)? Did that help generate the English literary world @ the time, as the various streams were interwoven? (To this day, Shakespeare is still considered one of the leading literary lights of the time - & possibly all time, in English letters, @ least.)
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Old April 27th, 2018, 08:19 AM   #25
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It would be interesting to know how far languages affect thought outside their own use. Like many languages, Cymraeg divides the colours green and blue at a different point in the spectrum from English, and nowadays, alas, outside Patagonia everyone who speaks Cymraeg also speaks English - yet I have yet to meet anyone who is aware of the difference.
I have never bothered to check, but a high school history teacher of mine told the class that there is only one word in German to cover both "stranger" and "enemy". He claimed that was an insight into their thinking.

I could see such a thing being true but as I said, I personally doubt this factoid without any factual basis.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 08:30 AM   #26
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Yep, language & gender is a real thicket. One of the items of interest: Britain had Celtic languages & populations, when Rome & Latin language came calling. Then Britain & France (French, a Romance language) interacted for a long time. This culminated in the Norman invasion, with French (& Latin - a holdover among the educated & scribes & clergy).

There's a fair amount of analysis of Shakespeare that holds that he took advantage of the British versus French versus Latin vocabularies & oral/written structures to enrich his plays & poetry. It's an interesting read.

Did Shakespeare (& by extension, UK) in some ways imitate the Jewish culture (a home language, a legal/court language, plus whatever vernacular was spoken)? Did that help generate the English literary world @ the time, as the various streams were interwoven? (To this day, Shakespeare is still considered one of the leading literary lights of the time - & possibly all time, in English letters, @ least.)
You really make this forum special with all the knowledge you have to share. Your questions are absolutely exiciting! I hope I find to time to look for answers, but now, I, unfortunately, have to run. However, if I had a mansion on a private island, you would certainly be someone I would invite for fascinating discussions.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 09:29 AM   #27
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...

However, if I had a mansion on a private island, you would certainly be someone I would invite for fascinating discussions.
Very kind.

I've never been to Oregon. But how fortunate for us that we have the Internet, & thousands of interesting topics to discuss.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 04:42 AM   #28
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How about gender and language? Different countries handle this differently.




This is an interesting difference...



With such language habits, Arab countries might be far more challenged to have a society that is not divided by gender. It seems to me, if one speaks Arabic, sex would be on a person's mind much more. Of course, such a language habit would translate into cultural norms.

When our English speaking nation used the pronoun "he" and never used the pronoun "she" unless speaking of a particular woman, and the postman was surely a man, we were not close to the gender equality we have today.
Cymraeg uses grammatical gender much like French, so everything is technically masculine or feminine, yet in the Mediaeval period women had a better situation than in other European countries. Under the laws of Hywel divorce was pretty easy, and a woman could get one, for instance, if her husband had bad breath. Their property was divided up under fairly sensible rules too.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 09:35 AM   #29
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Cymraeg uses grammatical gender much like French, so everything is technically masculine or feminine, yet in the Mediaeval period women had a better situation than in other European countries. Under the laws of Hywel divorce was pretty easy, and a woman could get one, for instance, if her husband had bad breath. Their property was divided up under fairly sensible rules too.
Oh wow, property rights are so important! When a person has property rights the person has an essential degree of human rights.

I am listening to lectures about life in ancient Athens, and life for women in Athens was really awful compared to our expected rights today. They were prisoners in their homes, with no more rights than women in radical Muslim countries today. In fact the Quran gave women better protection than women in the west had. While property could be in an Athenian woman's name, she was like a serf to the land, not the master of it. Only males had legal rights, and she went with the land. This could be seen as a protection for the woman, because a man would want her to have control of the land, however, if meant always being dependent on someone else. That really sucks! Even worse, because they didn't know young women were not fully developed inside and were at much higher risk of dying during child birth, they kept marrying the women off too young and killing them because of being too young to safely give birth to a child. At the time, the woman's value was bearing children and the land tied to her name.

I think we have something really good going in this thread, with at least three people willing to discuss interesting matters. I like what you have done with this discussion.

I am assuming you are both are male because nothing has been said about a language that always uses the pronoun "he". Right now we have shifted to the pronoun "she" and this is most uncomfortable to me because I know the harm of being made non existent with language. When I looked for information, I saw some effort is being made to have non gender words. I like using s/he to cover both genders but this does not work in all cases.

Interesting how property rights and language go with human rights.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 10:01 AM   #30
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Intellectual property?

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...

I think we have something really good going in this thread, with at least three people willing to discuss interesting matters. I like what you have done with this discussion.

...

Interesting how property rights and language go with human rights.
Yah, I think most people are willing to discuss interesting matters. But of course, it's the matters that interest that particular person. So the broader the education someone has, the likelier you are to find points that you can discuss with them - this includes people that learn by reading lots of books, or watching lots of educational video/DVDs, etc. Or simply by listening carefully - although that last is tough - if no one around has any interesting ideas, it's hard to form a whole universe of discourse by yourself.

Yes, property rights are very important, especially in Western Civilization. (The native peoples throughout the World found this out @ the sharp end.) Once the common laws were reduced to writing - Greece & Rome? before then? - then more & more, literacy became a real must-have for the elites, & gradually, for anyone who hoped to acquire real property.
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