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Old April 29th, 2018, 12:23 PM   #41
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Beyond a reasonable doubt?

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I think in history religion sprung up (sprung as in a geological time frame) for the same reason it persists today. Fear.

Fear of death and fear of the unknown.

...
That seems reasonable. & yet there were religions without god figures - Buddhism, Confucianism. & some of the Greeks & Romans managed without a pantheon nor a father or mother god - the Stoics, for instance.

I'd have to look into it some more. I haven't really studied the question for a long time, now.
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Old April 29th, 2018, 12:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
That seems reasonable. & yet there were religions without god figures - Buddhism, Confucianism. & some of the Greeks & Romans managed without a pantheon nor a father or mother god - the Stoics, for instance.

I'd have to look into it some more. I haven't really studied the question for a long time, now.
Buddhism, Confucianism and I believe Stoicism as a religion all search for inner peace and understanding, again a variation of alleviating fear,
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Old April 30th, 2018, 03:16 AM   #43
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Sorry - double posting.

Last edited by iolo; April 30th, 2018 at 03:19 AM.
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Old April 30th, 2018, 03:19 AM   #44
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Now you made me want more information. What did you use for a source of information? The information I got from a college lecture made me think the life of an Athenian woman would be pretty intolerable, but it couldn't have been as bad I think or women would not have tolerated it. They had to get a payoff.
Was this nothing more than material security?

The lectures I listened to said Athenians wanted small families, so the land would not be divided up and the girls would not drain the families wealth in the form of her dowry. For sure the mentality seems very focused on materialism.

I have to say, this discussion of a woman's place in society is a whole lot more interesting than another thread I created for that purpose! Heaven would be walks in nature and discussions as we are having here with interesting people.
I was talking about British Britain, not Athens. The position of women was pretty crappy in both, but a little better in early Britain.
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Old April 30th, 2018, 06:42 AM   #45
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The real thing?

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I was talking about British Britain, not Athens. The position of women was pretty crappy in both, but a little better in early Britain.
& apparently there actually were Amazons - if not quite as depicted in US popular culture. See Digging into myth of Amazon women - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

"Digging into myth of Amazon women

"August 04, 2004|By Jacqueline Fitzgerald, Tribune staff reporter.

"Centuries ago, the idea of tall, blond, fierce women warriors--the Amazons--captivated the Greek historian Herodotus and has fascinated countless generations since.

"Now the lives of the real women who inspired the legend are less of a mystery, thanks to scientist Jeannine Davis-Kimball of Ventura, Calif. A new TV documentary chronicles her discovery of a 9-year-old child who can claim lineage to the ancient nomadic people known as the Sarmatians. Davis-Kimball recently found a genetic link between the little blond girl in a western Mongolian village and a DNA sample from an ancient grave site in southern Russia. The 2,500-year-old graves contained women buried in full battle dress, with swords, daggers and arrowheads."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

So there was some basis for the Amazons. Except that the details are wrong - the Sarmatians trained everybody in self-defense - but even so ...

Last edited by hoosier88; April 30th, 2018 at 09:57 AM.
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Old April 30th, 2018, 07:46 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
That seems reasonable. & yet there were religions without god figures - Buddhism, Confucianism. & some of the Greeks & Romans managed without a pantheon nor a father or mother god - the Stoics, for instance.

I'd have to look into it some more. I haven't really studied the question for a long time, now.
We need to get back to that word "desacralization" and what it means to have a consciousness of the sacred. When our consciousness was of an animated reality where rivers, trees, and animals all have spirits, we had to figure out how to live in harmony with those spirits. I have read, when we took the life of an animal to feed ourselves, there was a feeling of regret and guilt that prompted myths about appeasing the spirits and making the wrong of killing a right. Such myth included a spiritual connection between all living things and a notion being spiritually right, meaning the spiritual harmony of man and the universe.

Look at I Ching, a Taoist understanding of life. Our actions must be in harmony with the universe or we will not get the results we want. That is the very meaning of rule by law. Most, unfortunately, we have lost our understanding of what science has to do with our democracy and we have lost the memory of those first humans trying to figure out how to survive.
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Old April 30th, 2018, 08:04 AM   #47
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I was talking about British Britain, not Athens. The position of women was pretty crappy in both, but a little better in early Britain.
I believe the Celtic women enjoyed an equality with the men. I have read they had laws that took care of the children and elders and the weak of any age. That is, they had social agreements good for the group's survival and the idea that everyone should be treated well. But this also goes with the responsibility of doing your share, no matter if you are male or female.

In an Athenian, Persian, Roman city, women could be reduced to pets men kept for breeding purpose and status. Celts did not have this luxury. Barbarian women had equality because survival was not easy, as it was for women in cities. In the city, male and female work was not just divided, but totally separated! Men congregated with each other and did the important things, while women stayed home. This life is completely different from barbarian life. Pioneer women in the move west, also had a more equal standing with men, until cities once again dominated.

This contrast between being a civilized woman and a barbaric woman is not a division of good and bad. Civilization could far better protect women and children, but this protection comes at a cost. We give up our rights to be protected and hopefully to enjoy a degree of luxury that is provided by the man. Neither extreme is desirable.
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Old April 30th, 2018, 08:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
& apparently there actually were Amazons - if not quite as depicted in US popular culture. See Digging into myth of Amazon women - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

"Digging into myth of Amazon women

"August 04, 2004|By Jacqueline Fitzgerald, Tribune staff reporter.

"Centuries ago, the idea of tall, blond, fierce women warriors--the Amazons--captivated the Greek historian Herodotus and has fascinated countless generations since.

"Now the lives of the real women who inspired the legend are less of a mystery, thanks to scientist Jeannine Davis-Kimball of Ventura, Calif. A new TV documentary chronicles her discovery of a 9-year-old child who can claim lineage to the ancient nomadic people known as the Sarmatians. Davis-Kimball recently found a genetic link between the little blond girl in a western Mongolian village and a DNA sample from an ancient grave site in southern Russia. The 2,500-year-old graves contained women buried in full battle dress, with swords, daggers and arrowheads."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

So there was some basis for the Amazons. Except that the details are wrong - the Sarmatians trained everybody in self-defense - but even so ...
We have island cultures where no one is a warrior. On these islands males and females have a division of labor, but not the separation that occurs in cities. Some circumstances lead to cannibalism and warrior cultures, and some circumstances do not. Human nature is the same, but it is expressed differently depending on circumstances.
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Old April 30th, 2018, 08:14 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
Buddhism, Confucianism and I believe Stoicism as a religion all search for inner peace and understanding, again a variation of alleviating fear,
There is a whole lot more to gain than an elimination of fear. Some people use alcohol and drugs to achieve that freedom.
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Old May 3rd, 2018, 06:26 PM   #50
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& someday, K2

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...

I have to say, this discussion of a woman's place in society is a whole lot more interesting than another thread I created for that purpose! Heaven would be walks in nature and discussions as we are having here with interesting people.
Yes, I think this thread is more of an amble along the various topics, as they surface. I hope we're doing them all justice - we've certainly covered a lot of ground. & that's only the first ramparts.
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