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Old October 31st, 2015, 09:56 PM   #31
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When has capitalism never existed? Certainly not in any period of recorded history. The more I think of it, isn't capitalism just a name we came up with for the reality of life. In essence all we have ever done is tempered the violence to achieve the same goals. If you want to blame capitalism for every war and death then ok, have at it. If nothing was ever fought over, then what would anything even be worth? The Native Americans certainly didn't live in some utopia. They may have been anarchist type society, but they killed over the best hunting grounds, the best place to grow, the best places for water. You say profit, but what is profit? Profit is just increasing your wealth isn't it. Wealth takes many forms. It could be food, clothes, homes. Wealth to me is probably totally different to some kid in Somalia. Some kid who has probably killed two or three people just to survive, before he was even 15 years old. To him, taking the largest room, or having the most to eat is his wealth. So, you say profit, but I say profit = wealth. And wealth we all want in some way.
Capitalism hasn't always existed. Capitalism has only existed for about 400-500 years. In fact, many small, primitive societies followed forms of socialism or anarchism.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 09:58 PM   #32
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When has capitalism never existed? Certainly not in any period of recorded history. The more I think of it, isn't capitalism just a name we came up with for the reality of life....
No, capitalism is "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

Capitalism really got rolling in the era of Mercantilism.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:00 PM   #33
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Capitalism hasn't always existed. Capitalism has only existed for about 400-500 years. In fact, many small, primitive societies followed forms of socialism or anarchism.
Someone always had a bigger house, more to eat, more sheep. People were selling live stock before Jesus roamed the planet. Sorry, but capitalism has always been here. As you even pointed out, the attempts at it through authoritarian regimes even failed because they were just centrally controlled forms of capitalism, that stole every ones wealth to enrich the state. So, the closest we have ever came is a means to steal everyone's wealth in a equal manner. Monarchies, with there lords and peasants, hmm, that is closer, but still yet, the lord just stole the productivity of the workers, not allowing them any profit, so the lord could have all the profit. Basically socialism with a blood line.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:02 PM   #34
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You also have to take into account that amount of people who have died in total over time can exceed the population on Earth.
Yep, that's why 110 billion seems a pretty good estimate. The human population of the earth was pretty small for thousands of years. Have you discovered another estimate to share?
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:03 PM   #35
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No, capitalism is "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

Capitalism really got rolling in the era of Mercantilism.
The state just controlled the profit. Yes, the text book definition of socialism. I get that. I get the text book statement of capitalism as well. But, when you start talking in the sense of just wealth and profit, when has that not ever happened? Even in state controlled wonderful Utopia's there was not an absence of wealth created by profit. It was just the means to distribute the wealth that was different.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:06 PM   #36
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Someone always had a bigger house, more to eat, more sheep. People were selling live stock before Jesus roamed the planet. Sorry, but capitalism has always been here. As you even pointed out, the attempts at it through authoritarian regimes even failed because they were just centrally controlled forms of capitalism, that stole every ones wealth to enrich the state. So, the closest we have ever came is a means to steal everyone's wealth in a equal manner. Monarchies, with there lords and peasants, hmm, that is closer, but still yet, the lord just stole the productivity of the workers, not allowing them any profit, so the lord could have all the profit. Basically socialism with a blood line.
Of course people have always sold stuff, but capitalism is when the merchants dominate society. Under feudalism, and the systems that came before it, they did not. Prior to capitalism, the monarch, nobility, and religious institutions dominated society. Nowadays, under capitalism, the state and corporations dominate society.

It's also worth pointing out that an intelligent socialist understands that you cannot create a utopia. The purpose of socialism, as I understand it, is to create a more rational and better society than capitalism.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:08 PM   #37
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The state just controlled the profit. Yes, the text book definition of socialism. I get that. I get the text book statement of capitalism as well. But, when you start talking in the sense of just wealth and profit, when has that not ever happened? Even in state controlled wonderful Utopia's there was not an absence of wealth created by profit. It was just the means to distribute the wealth that was different.
You don't get it.

For millennia the rulers had all of the wealth. That's not socialism.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:09 PM   #38
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You don't get it.

For millennia the rulers had all of the wealth. That's not socialism.
Socialism is when wealth is commonly owned, some people have merely misinterpreted this as meaning owned by the state.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:18 PM   #39
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Socialism is when wealth is commonly owned, some people have merely misinterpreted this as meaning owned by the state.
But its always redistributed by the state. Even in a Democratic Socialism, the wealth is voted on, and the state redistributes the wealth by virtue of the votes of the people. All wealth, always ends up in the hands of the state for some period in a socialism.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:23 PM   #40
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But its always redistributed by the state. Even in a Democratic Socialism, the wealth is voted on, and the state redistributes the wealth by virtue of the votes of the people. All wealth, always ends up in the hands of the state for some period in a socialism.
This is an irritating conversation because you do not understand the definitions of the terms you're using.
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