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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:28 PM   #41
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You don't get it.

For millennia the rulers had all of the wealth. That's not socialism.
You don't get it. The argument isn't rather or not its socialism or not. Its was their a desire to have wealth. The answer is yes there has always been that desire. What is capitalism? Its for profit. What is profit? If you define it in modern terms its a short term goal and a means to measure the efficiency of the profit producing entity. What is wealth. Wealth is the long term goal to increase its share of something. In other words to have the most, or the largest of xxx. I contend, and yes this is debatable as hell, but I contend the only difference between profit and wealth is the goals. To have the most of or the largest of something you must have a form of profit. Your losses can not be more than what you take in if you are attempting to increase or have wealth. Once you have wealth, it can become a hedge against certain profit losses. Example. You village grain bins are full to the top. That is your village wealth. I don't care who owns it. The next year, the crops fail. Your grain bins are half full. Your wealth, overcame the loss in profit. The profit being the crops. Had your wealth only been half full grain bins. Your profit loss, profit being the crops, just wiped out all your wealth. You starve.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:33 PM   #42
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This is an irritating conversation because you do not understand the definitions of the terms you're using.
No, its irritating to you because I do understand them and its not the narrative you like.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:38 PM   #43
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This became a good conversation to participate in. Not surprisingly at 0130hours. Anyway, it was a good ending to my night on here.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 10:44 PM   #44
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No, its irritating to you because I do understand them and its not the narrative you like.
Socialism isn't government intervention.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 03:18 AM   #45
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People talk about how horrible socialism is, and how millions of people have died under socialist regimes, right? Let's take a look at capitalism. If you calculated the amount of people who have died under the capitalist system (slavery, war, colonization, homelessness, poor working/living conditions, etc), these deaths, which would probably be in the trillions of properly calculated, are not attributed to capitalism by people who support capitalism. However, capitalists and liberals attribute these things to other factors. Why is that?
Survival of the species by the fittest. Darwin
Kill the enemy before the enemy kills you. Patton
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Old November 1st, 2015, 04:58 AM   #46
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I think the core of the problem, Gordy, as that most people have no real understanding of the socialist ideal, its method or its goals. They've never read Marx's manifesto, or the IWW Preamble, or Eduard Bernstein, or Eugene Debs or Norman Thomas. About all they know is that Stalin was a bad guy who somehow killed a lot of people. So... that stands as proof that capitalism is a better, safer economic system, watching out for the downtrodden masses in the "free" world.

On the other hand, true socialism fails in the belief that the ignorant masses of uneducated people on a global scale can be taught to "think collectively," which they can't. They human brain is geared to think individually, with self-service and self-preservation as the driving force. Whether a society is striving towards laissez-faire capitalism or towards revisionist socialism, this ugly little face of rugged individualism and self-gain will keep popping up to take advantage of the system, and the process will spin out of control.

A violent revolution may purge a lot of undesirables and vent a lot of rage, but in the end your guillotine will produce yet another Napoleon. You can't purge away human nature, and you can't legislate away prejudice and greed.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 05:29 AM   #47
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I think the core of the problem, Gordy, as that most people have no real understanding of the socialist ideal, its method or its goals. They've never read Marx's manifesto, or the IWW Preamble, or Eduard Bernstein, or Eugene Debs or Norman Thomas. About all they know is that Stalin was a bad guy who somehow killed a lot of people. So... that stands as proof that capitalism is a better, safer economic system, watching out for the downtrodden masses in the "free" world.

On the other hand, true socialism fails in the belief that the ignorant masses of uneducated people on a global scale can be taught to "think collectively," which they can't. They human brain is geared to think individually, with self-service and self-preservation as the driving force. Whether a society is striving towards laissez-faire capitalism or towards revisionist socialism, this ugly little face of rugged individualism and self-gain will keep popping up to take advantage of the system, and the process will spin out of control.

A violent revolution may purge a lot of undesirables and vent a lot of rage, but in the end your guillotine will produce yet another Napoleon. You can't purge away human nature, and you can't legislate away prejudice and greed.
I read the Decline of the West by Oswald Spengler just to see what he had to say. Hitler read Spengler and it twisted his mind but did not twist my mind.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 05:42 AM   #48
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Survival of the species by the fittest. Darwin
Kill the enemy before the enemy kills you. Patton
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.... -- Jesus Christ

And therein rests the dysfunction and hypocrisy of Western culture.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 05:51 AM   #49
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You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.... -- Jesus Christ

And therein rests the dysfunction and hypocrisy of Western culture.
That's the Golden Rule of Western culture. Those who can accumulate the gold get to rule.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 05:51 AM   #50
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You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.... -- Jesus Christ

And therein rests the dysfunction and hypocrisy of Western culture.
I respect my neighbor and do not covet my neighbor's wife unless she is a hottie and signals me to come to her side. Beauty lies in the beholder and she was Bathsheba incarnate.
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