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Old March 27th, 2018, 09:34 AM   #41
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The slave owners were the aristocracy and elitists of the south. They tried to run a feudal system within the United States. The Civil War was absolutely over slavery and ending the elitists control. Read why West Virginia stood up and said no to that aristocracy.

Fast forward to today. Democrat party
We need illegal aliens to do the work American will not.
They do the same job cheaper.

Sound familiar?
Why not try to change the topic!

But, you're going to try to tell everyone that it's just Democrats, and not "moderate" Republicans also, who want to keep at least a moderate flow of immigration from the south to provide a cheap labor force? Look up Reagan or Bush's amnesty programs for example!

But, even the hardliners are full of crap, since the idiot you guys put up in the White House has freely used undocumented workers in his business operations, while one of the first hardliner/seal the border candidates I recall- Pat Buchanan, had his presidential run blown up when it was revealed he had also hired "illegal" workers at his house and had an undocumented housemaid from El Salvador at the time.

The solution to mass migrations and border issues is to end the NAFTA system that has only benefited the wealthy, international capitalist elites at everyone else's expense! Most of the migrants had to abandon their farms when NAFTA produced a flood of cheap industrial-agriculture-grown corn and grains were shipped south to Mexican food markets. But the self-serving national illusion believed by both liberals and conservatives in America is that people trying to cross your southern border are there NOT because they are desperate to escape what's going on in their own country, but because America is the beacon of freedom of opportunity in the world....keep dreaming!
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Old March 27th, 2018, 09:37 AM   #42
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But, the real strength of his book is not the testimonials, it's in the numbers that he had to laboriously crunch...especially the log books and accounting records from the pre-Civil War era, that were in archives and allowed for a factual analysis that determines how profitable slave labor was. The profitability of slavery has been downplayed since the Civil War ended, because both sides had reasons to minimize the income and wealth generated afterwards. The records clearly show that most plantations in slave states kept increasing the amounts of cotton produced year by year, until the outbreak of the War.

I like non-fiction books that explain the gaps that are missing in the other books on any given subject. Just about everything written on American history during the era of slavery- through the Civil War-and the aftermath, just skates over the surface and tells about the politics...what was said and done and the battles etc. of the Civil War.
This is very true. As I read Baptiste’s book I could not help but notice the similarities between the housing bubble of this century with the cotton bubble during the pre-Civil War era. They both lead to the same financial and social problems. The South did not leverage technology to the degree that the North had. The very viability of the southern plantation was dependent on slave labor. As you say, though the movie Gone With The Wind ignored detail for marketing reasons, the movie did illustrate the reality of the southern plantation in the absence of slave labor.

But we should not ignore the social lesson’s revealed in Baptiste’s book either. I always saw the Indian relocation as a separate historical issue from the slave issue. Baptiste’s book drew the connection for me between the insatiable appetite to plant cotton in states like Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana with the need to remove the Indian population to appropriate such land for that purpose.

I was also struck by the different treatment of the slaves in the original cotton producing states on the east coast vs. the new cotton producing states in the interior. East coast plantation owners thought it was in their best interests to keep slave families intact. Speculation in the interior cotton states drew no such distinction. In fact, these speculators thought a young slave could produce more if said slave was divorced from his/her family ties. These slaves had no hope of ever seeing their family again so they naturally started new ones. It struck me that today’s fatherless black family crisis might very well have roots in the legacy of forced estrangement during the cotton bubble as it relates to slavery.
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Old March 27th, 2018, 10:14 AM   #43
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This is very true. As I read Baptiste’s book I could not help but notice the similarities between the housing bubble of this century with the cotton bubble during the pre-Civil War era. They both lead to the same financial and social problems. The South did not leverage technology to the degree that the North had. The very viability of the southern plantation was dependent on slave labor. As you say, though the movie Gone With The Wind ignored detail for marketing reasons, the movie did illustrate the reality of the southern plantation in the absence of slave labor.

But we should not ignore the social lesson’s revealed in Baptiste’s book either. I always saw the Indian relocation as a separate historical issue from the slave issue. Baptiste’s book drew the connection for me between the insatiable appetite to plant cotton in states like Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana with the need to remove the Indian population to appropriate such land for that purpose.

I was also struck by the different treatment of the slaves in the original cotton producing states on the east coast vs. the new cotton producing states in the interior. East coast plantation owners thought it was in their best interests to keep slave families intact. Speculation in the interior cotton states drew no such distinction. In fact, these speculators thought a young slave could produce more if said slave was divorced from his/her family ties. These slaves had no hope of ever seeing their family again so they naturally started new ones. It struck me that today’s fatherless black family crisis might very well have roots in the legacy of forced estrangement during the cotton bubble as it relates to slavery.
The south wasn't devoid of industry though...as Gone With the Wind might indicate! But, one of the biggest lies after the War was that slavery was not viable for industrial applications. Considering the near slavery conditions that exist in every industrializing society ever since England of the 1820's, that should have been obvious!

Yes, by the time slavery ended, most African descendents in America only had bits and pieces of their original cultural heritages. It is worth noting though that except for slaves taken from West Africa...where there were many Muslim converts, most came from matriarchal societies that traced their lineage through their mother's side of the family. That, along with their application in cotton growing and harvesting..where women could and did produce as much, if not more product for the plantation owners, made it pretty hard to try to impose patriarchies afterwards that were expected by the Christian religion they adopted during slavery and to fit in to the larger white society of America. So, trying to create respectable family models as laid out in the Moynihan Report to Congress back in the 60's (that's where we first find the 'crisis of the fatherless negro family' presented as a political issue. In actual fact, a culture that was ripped away and lost was replaced with a model that did not fit an economic underclass where women earned more money in the workplace than men did.
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Old March 27th, 2018, 10:41 AM   #44
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Yeah, the "states right" to keep and expand slavery.
A states right to self determination as an independent Nation. What that determination is or was is secondary to that states rights as an independent Nation. Once they seceded, they no longer belonged to the Union and their rights as a Nation, unto itself, should have been recognized by the Federal government. Hence, the war of Northern aggression.
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Old March 27th, 2018, 11:26 AM   #45
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Of course they are linked. But the simplistic view that many are taught in schools, especially northern public schools where Lincoln was the great emancipator who went to war w/ the wretched south to free the slaves is absolutely wrong.


Cherry picking again, Sab, or are you just discovering that most history books have very subtle slants? Were you devastated to find out that some of the Cowboys v Indian stories should have OUTED the cowboys--not the Indians?? That cultural bias exist--that heroes weren't really heroes after all?

I recommend you read "Lies My Teacher Told Me" 1995 book by James W. Loewen, a sociologist--if you haven't already.

p.s. I did not plagiarize the above sentences.
But I can offer you a link if needed.
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Old March 27th, 2018, 12:19 PM   #46
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Of course they are linked. But the simplistic view that many are taught in schools, especially northern public schools where Lincoln was the great emancipator who went to war w/ the wretched south to free the slaves is absolutely wrong.
LOL....no more so than the southern bullshit that is was about freedom from the north's tyranny...
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Old March 27th, 2018, 12:21 PM   #47
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A states right to self determination as an independent Nation. What that determination is or was is secondary to that states rights as an independent Nation. Once they seceded, they no longer belonged to the Union and their rights as a Nation, unto itself, should have been recognized by the Federal government. Hence, the war of Northern aggression.
The C.S.A. got it's ass kicked. We graciously allowed them to rejoin the union and did not even hang their leaders and demand massive reparations.
They got off easy.
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Old March 27th, 2018, 02:12 PM   #48
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All the North lacked was military leadership

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The C.S.A. got it's ass kicked. We graciously allowed them to rejoin the union and did not even hang their leaders and demand massive reparations.
They got off easy.
Plantation Society was booted to the curb - the owners of the big cotton plantations, & the families who dominated Southern politics, government, schools, newspapers, religion - every desirable slot in the South, in fact. They so thoroughly dominated their political environment that anyone with different ideas - economic, political, racial, theological - had to leave or keep quiet.

& so the mechanics & innovators left - mostly to the North, where there was financing, mass literacy, infrastructure - common schools, roads, canals, shipping, railroads - & factories & manufacturing & wages paid for labor. This encouraged banks, financing, insurance. The North produced better educated workers & citizens, who invested & valued labor-saving devices. The cumulative effects were that the North buried the South in output of all kinds - especially military goods - shot & shell, gunpowder, rifles, pistols, saddles, wagons, trains, track, telegraph, heliograph, uniforms, rations & logistics.

It was a prequel to WWII & Imperial Japan v. the US - from unpromising beginnings, the US simply out produced Japan in nearly every category, including military personnel. Moreover, US & Northern production was qualitatively better over time. Neither the CSA nor Imperial Japan could wage a long war - victory had to be short & sharp.
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Last edited by hoosier88; March 27th, 2018 at 02:45 PM. Reason: fix
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Old March 27th, 2018, 02:31 PM   #49
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The C.S.A. got it's ass kicked. We graciously allowed them to rejoin the union and did not even hang their leaders and demand massive reparations.
They got off easy.
Was the war necessary? Did the C. S. A. have a legal right to secede? There is nothing gracious about allowing the Southern states back into the Union when your looking down the barrel of a gun. You could say that that war accomplished two things, (1) abolition of slavery, and (2) abolition of the Union.
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Old March 27th, 2018, 03:04 PM   #50
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Was the war necessary? Did the C. S. A. have a legal right to secede? There is nothing gracious about allowing the Southern states back into the Union when your looking down the barrel of a gun. You could say that that war accomplished two things, (1) abolition of slavery, and (2) abolition of the Union.
Just does not matter at this point. *shrug*
The union still stands, the C.S.A. is in the garbage dump of history.
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