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Old April 5th, 2018, 08:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
@Sabcat

Interesting.

Now, on particular issues for which they do have requisite knowledge and/or experience--that it is perfectly sensible in my mind, and is to be encouraged. However, a wave of people in their low to mid twenties presenting themselves as sages to the world I view to be extremely naïve, if not the type of high-level arrogance that inevitably leads to self-delusion. I have long thought this, though have recently seen Jordan Peterson make a similar case, articulated well. Further, now that I am a bit older myself (though, still firmly in the age range I am discussing), has hardened my stance.

Here is one such video by Jordan Peterson with his view on the topic:

(A) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x3hFZx1_VU

Sure, but here we have technology were peoples from allover the world can reach each other in a manner of seconds. Just because their theories are undeveloped why shouldn't they sharpen their skills on one and other. Now if the plebs are to stupid to realize they are hearing the voices of children and in the case of hogg being manipulated then so be it. What can be done? The more people engaging in open dialogue the better. Truth will win out in the end.
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Old April 5th, 2018, 10:41 PM   #12
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Sure, but here we have technology were peoples from allover the world can reach each other in a manner of seconds. Just because their theories are undeveloped why shouldn't they sharpen their skills on one and other. Now if the plebs are to stupid to realize they are hearing the voices of children and in the case of hogg being manipulated then so be it. What can be done? The more people engaging in open dialogue the better. Truth will win out in the end.
@Sabcat

I agree with many points you made. And, to be clear, it is not that I think they should be barred from speaking, rather that they should be advised against it--except for the special cases I named or a rare type of person. More than anything, I think it is self-destructive for (most of) these people, even though they are not currently aware of it--much like for Hogg, actually (again, I am speaking strictly about going public with their (current) convictions, on a number of topics). Of course, there will always be a rare 'Harry Potter'-type; that is, a child who's spark shines so brightly they excel even in the 'adult world'. However, even for many quite talented youth, rushing into deep waters before they have fully mastered 'basic swimming techniques' proves damaging--longer term. For instance, you see this all the time in Hollywood with child actors, and elsewhere.

Also, this is essentially my view for University and such as well. That is, if a person particularly highly excels at a topic--by all means, go straight into it. However, for most (as in, the overwhelming majority), the path I have discussed previously on DTT I think is the best option (even if you are 'pretty good').

Basically, I think 'Star Wars' more or less got it right. These are Padawan learners, and should be recognized and treated as such. One (significant) problem is, there simply are not that many reasonably strong people to discuss such issues (at least, who have went public)--so when more qualified 'Jedi' see them about, they are generally just happy to see others 'joining the fight'--and thus, do not 'put them in their place', which may actually be much more helpful. Note, this is standard procedure in Academia/University system (at least in STEM, that is); and it is set up that way for the health & stability of the system as well as the student themselves. For one (amongst other reasons), if one is never firmly 'put in their place', then there is no real incentive to keep growing, or view of a superior model to strive toward. Also, one will likely become to 'flashy', over-confident, deluded even, with stunted growth & potential. Then, if one rushes into a competitive arena way before they are ready, they may get stomped too hard, which could cripple potential growth as well.

Again, I agree with what you said, people certainly should have the understanding of who they are listening to, and weigh it accordingly, as well as judge ideas based on how sound (or unsound) they may be--rather than the person. Really, I am more concerned about the proper development of the people themselves, which ultimately contributes to the health of society at large.

I can give more exact examples of what I mean, invoking people, but this post has already been quite sizeable, and I will end it here for now.
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Last edited by xMathFanx; April 5th, 2018 at 11:54 PM.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 08:41 AM   #13
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@ xMathFanx....We saw the same thing with the Vietnam War protesters....late teens early 20s....99% of them talking like real tough guys, but also like fools... A very small minority of them could actually articulate a valid argument to end the war.. Virtually everybody who was older could see that the vast majority of them were being told what to say and what to think.... Even to this day some of them will still say..."See we were right!!"....Yeah...even a blind pig stumbles into a corn crib once in a while.. What they don't admit is that their aggressive attitude, coupled with a lack of experience, turned a lot of people off, especially in the Government/Military, causing a stubbornness that probably extended the War....You can be right and wrong at the same time...
Exactly WHAT argument did they need to articulate ?? ALL they needed to know was the DRAFT WAS REAL. The military would arrest you, force you through boot camp, slap you on a plane and send you to DIE in the heat and humidity of Vietnam. 58,220 young men died there. AND FOR WHAT ???? What exactly did we achieve there ?? THAT was part of the issue. There WAS NO CLEAR CUT AGENDA. Unlike WW2 where everyone understood we were literally saving the world, and every one thought we were fighting the war to end all wars. NO ONE CLEARLY EXPLAINED purpose for the war in Vietnam. Most people still can't really explain why we were there. Kinda like the current war on terror.

So, did those kids REALLY need to understand or even try to understand the political bullshit behind the war ?? NO !!!! All they needed to know was people were dying, and thanks to the draft, they very well could be next.

I find it funny you claim their aggressiveness may have actually extended the war !!! That's fucking hilarious when THE GOVERNMENT HAD THE DRAFT !!!! When the government could literally snatch you off the street, stuff you in a uniform and send you off to war.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 08:53 AM   #14
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Exactly WHAT argument did they need to articulate ?? ALL they needed to know was the DRAFT WAS REAL. The military would arrest you, force you through boot camp, slap you on a plane and send you to DIE in the heat and humidity of Vietnam. 58,220 young men died there. AND FOR WHAT ???? What exactly did we achieve there ?? THAT was part of the issue. There WAS NO CLEAR CUT AGENDA. Unlike WW2 where everyone understood we were literally saving the world, and every one thought we were fighting the war to end all wars. NO ONE CLEARLY EXPLAINED purpose for the war in Vietnam. Most people still can't really explain why we were there. Kinda like the current war on terror.

So, did those kids REALLY need to understand or even try to understand the political bullshit behind the war ?? NO !!!! All they needed to know was people were dying, and thanks to the draft, they very well could be next.

I find it funny you claim their aggressiveness may have actually extended the war !!! That's fucking hilarious when THE GOVERNMENT HAD THE DRAFT !!!! When the government could literally snatch you off the street, stuff you in a uniform and send you off to war.
That's true, but we did oppose the war on moral and humanitarian grounds. My parents' generation raised some good children, and gave us a damned good public education. Then we went to college, and it was there that we learned "the other side of the story."

In learning it, we saw, quickly, that Johnson's escalations and Nixon's excuses and empty promises were crimes against the Vietnamese and US citizens.

Some of the poor souls who were drafted or volunteered to fight in VN cannot to this day see how they were used by politicians and CEOs. Some of them still condemn in the harshest terms those of us who were fighting on the home front for them and their families.

Damn that war, damn those who created and sustained it, a war almost as destructive to our national unity as the Civil War. May God or time if you will heal the wounds of all who were damaged by it.
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