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Old May 2nd, 2018, 09:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
This is what the right wants for this country

It amazes me that, even on a political forum like this where people express their ideas freely at some length, there is still so much miscommunication/misunderstanding between people who (currently) identify with the other side(s). The inability to 'bridge-the-gap' is very dangerous, as it balkanized the country into competing camps for survival.
Don't agree at all, we can't let the insane take over this country and in fact , you are responsible to take a position to save this country from the ugliest, most immoral , mentally Ill, criminal, cruel, evil, most hateful pig that has ever led this country. No one should stand back and play patty cake with a group that is more then willing to destroy this country to stay in power and protect the unpredictable. Your against it or your part of it. That's what happens when you elect a hate driven pig as a president. By the way no one should forget the people who made this happen , there is no excuse.
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Old May 2nd, 2018, 09:57 AM   #12
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I have been informed (by many on DTT) that the trickle-down/tinkle on concept works, J. AND it is successful for several reasons. Here are some of their offerings:
*The top 1% must be given tax breaks so they will invest that extra money in employment, improvements and economies.
*The top 1% deserves those tax breaks because they have worked harder and smarter. They have built better mouse traps. They have spent MORE TIME on their trade.
*The top 1% are generous, altruistic and charitable, thereby contributing to the "general welfare" of those who NEED welfare.
*The top 1% assure us that EVENTUALLY all their hard work will "DRIP" down to the needy.

Reagan used TRICKLE. Shrub used TRICKLE. It seemed to work, BUT..... at the same time, the Federal Reserve lowered the fed funds rate. It fell from 6 percent to 1 percent. It's unclear whether tax cuts or monetary policy caused the recovery.
NOW we understand what happened. It took decades but here we are. Income inequality worsened--dramatically. Between 1979 and 2005, after-tax household income rose 6 percent for the bottom fifth. That sounds great until you see what happened for the top fifth. Their income increased by 80 percent. The top 1 percent saw their income triple. Instead of trickling down, it appears that prosperity trickled up.

Unfortunately, you'll NEVER convince a Reaganite or a Trumpette that trickle down doesn't work.
Nothing else has to be said , this says it all


GEE I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED IN 1981
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Last edited by imaginethat; May 2nd, 2018 at 03:11 PM.
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Old May 2nd, 2018, 11:41 AM   #13
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Don't agree at all, we can't let the insane take over this country and in fact , you are responsible to take a position to save this country from the ugliest, most immoral , mentally Ill, criminal, cruel, evil, most hateful pig that has ever led this country. No one should stand back and play patty cake with a group that is more then willing to destroy this country to stay in power and protect the unpredictable. Your against it or your part of it. That's what happens when you elect a hate driven pig as a president. By the way no one should forget the people who made this happen , there is no excuse.
@jbander

You did not address my point. That is, there is a profound lack of ability to understand what the differing peoples positions in fact are and the thought processes that led to the conclusions. It is imperative to comprehend why people hold to certain positions in order argue against it, if necessary.
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Old May 2nd, 2018, 03:19 PM   #14
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Nothing else has to be said , this says it all


GEE I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED IN 1981
The bipartisan pluking of Americans in a graph.

No "rocket fuel."

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Investment Boom From Trump’s Tax Cut
Has Yet to Appear


After years of costly layoffs and plant closings, things are looking up for the heavy-machinery giant Caterpillar, which forecasts solid global sales growth and increased demand this year. Yet despite the corporate investment incentives at the center of President Trump’s tax overhaul, the company’s executives have no plans to supercharge investment or expansion.

Caterpillar’s plans for new investment remain low by historical standards. Instead, the company has started using cash to repurchase its own stock as a way to return cash to shareholders, something it hadn’t done since 2015.

“We feel we have the necessary bricks-and-mortar capacity that we need,” Brad Halverson, the company’s chief financial officer, said in a post-earnings conference call last Tuesday.

Republicans sold the 2017 tax law as “rocket fuel” for American investment and growth, saying that corporations — flush with cash from lower tax rates — would channel money back into the economy by building factories and offices and investing in equipment, which would help companies grow and provide winnings for workers.

Economists say that may happen as companies readjust their spending plans over the coming months to take advantage of the new law, and they note that it is too early to tell how much the tax law will spread into the broader economy.

But, so far, hard evidence of such an acceleration has yet to appear in economic data, which show more of a steady investment roll than a rapid escalation. And while there are pockets of the economy where investment is picking up — among large tech companies and in shale oil business, for example — corporate spending on buying back stock is increasing at a far faster clip, prompting a debate about whether the law is returning money to the overall economy or just rewarding a small segment of investors.
More: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/b...T.nav=top-news
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Old May 2nd, 2018, 03:36 PM   #15
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Nothing else has to be said , this says it all


GEE I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED IN 1981
@jbander

I certainly would not argue there is not substantial greed and such in the market that is a factor here--there is. Rather, the fact remains, all one has to do in America to live a financially comfortable life is to graduate high school, go to Community College for a practical Associates degree or certificate program, and then hold the job. If a married couple does that, then they are in range of 100k per year--not exactly a struggle for survival. There are also all types of programs available to help people get into this stable position. Again, things are far from 'fair', however there is still plenty enough opportunity and 'fairness' to live a pretty comfortable existence without too much difficulty--from a strictly financial standpoint. Now, whether or not you actually like your work is another matter entirely, as well as many other issues/potential issues.

Many 'Progressives' do not acknowledge this when critiquing the system and promoting particular policies.

Last edited by xMathFanx; May 2nd, 2018 at 03:38 PM.
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Old May 2nd, 2018, 06:44 PM   #16
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@jbander

I certainly would not argue there is not substantial greed and such in the market that is a factor here--there is. Rather, the fact remains, all one has to do in America to live a financially comfortable life is to graduate high school, go to Community College for a practical Associates degree or certificate program, and then hold the job. If a married couple does that, then they are in range of 100k per year--not exactly a struggle for survival. There are also all types of programs available to help people get into this stable position. Again, things are far from 'fair', however there is still plenty enough opportunity and 'fairness' to live a pretty comfortable existence without too much difficulty--from a strictly financial standpoint. Now, whether or not you actually like your work is another matter entirely, as well as many other issues/potential issues.

Many 'Progressives' do not acknowledge this when critiquing the system and promoting particular policies.
Here's the issue my friend. While it is true that a couple with good trade degrees can easily cross the six figure line. The truth is they SHOULD be WELL OVER that line. They SHOULD be approaching the 200K mark.

Middle class America has not had a real pay raise in nearly two decades. What little increase in wages they may have seen has been completely eroded by inflation. Housing and automobiles are VERY expensive.

I have NOT had a real pay raise in over 10 years. And no I do not work for some small business. I work for a large multinational. Not only have I not had a raise, I've actually take two small cuts. The raises I've received have NOT made up the losses. I've taken a triple hit. Between the pay cuts, the lack of raises and inflation what was 10 years ago a decent salary is slowly becoming barely adequate. I'm not poor by any means, but I do see my end of month balance getting slowly smaller ever year.

I'm not alone in this. The vast majority of middle class America has NOT even kept up with our very modest inflation.

In 1973 the median household income was $12,600. That's a little over $73,000 in todays money. The CURRENT median household income is just $59,000.

THAT'S what's wrong with our economy !!!!! Corporate America, lead by the evil empire themselves, Walmart, have outsourced, offshored and downsized to the point they have driven wages so low, that most of those employed by those companies cannot afford the products and services they produce. Add to that a flood of illegals which drive wages even low and here we are.
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Old May 3rd, 2018, 12:18 AM   #17
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Here's the issue my friend. While it is true that a couple with good trade degrees can easily cross the six figure line. The truth is they SHOULD be WELL OVER that line. They SHOULD be approaching the 200K mark.

Middle class America has not had a real pay raise in nearly two decades. What little increase in wages they may have seen has been completely eroded by inflation. Housing and automobiles are VERY expensive.

I have NOT had a real pay raise in over 10 years. And no I do not work for some small business. I work for a large multinational. Not only have I not had a raise, I've actually take two small cuts. The raises I've received have NOT made up the losses. I've taken a triple hit. Between the pay cuts, the lack of raises and inflation what was 10 years ago a decent salary is slowly becoming barely adequate. I'm not poor by any means, but I do see my end of month balance getting slowly smaller ever year.

I'm not alone in this. The vast majority of middle class America has NOT even kept up with our very modest inflation.

In 1973 the median household income was $12,600. That's a little over $73,000 in todays money. The CURRENT median household income is just $59,000.

THAT'S what's wrong with our economy !!!!! Corporate America, lead by the evil empire themselves, Walmart, have outsourced, offshored and downsized to the point they have driven wages so low, that most of those employed by those companies cannot afford the products and services they produce. Add to that a flood of illegals which drive wages even low and here we are.
@BubbaJones

Right, and I am not arguing against what you say here. Rather, I am pointing out an issue with either (A) hyperbole (B ) a deep lack of understanding (C) intentional distortions (D) some combination of A, B, C, coming from (what is often described as) the 'Progressive' critique and hence policy promotions on those grounds.

It also depends on the standard of living a person is adopting. 50k a year is enough to mortgage a decent house or good condo, have a car, insurance, no shortage of food, mobile phone, utilities, some 'spending money' & a bit of savings to invest in anyway one chooses. Could/should it be better based on the chart the other poster cited and others stats?--yes. Though, it is best to stay grounded when discussing the matter as well.

You have to understand, I come from a family that had two such solid salaries which combined put them in the 140(ish) k range. They used to complain and think about money all of the time when really the only reason that would ever be the case (short of some unforeseen medical or home emergency) is due to all of their foolish spending habits--which are their choices. Buying a big, high-priced house, getting a bunch of vehicles, filling the big house with a bunch of (over-priced) stuff, buying stuff on credit, over-spending at the grocery store, not researching sensible investments--then there are a bunch of completely unnecessary monthly bills to pay and before you know it, that level of money is run through very quickly.

When I first moved out, I had two low-wage jobs (about 50-60 hrs a week) which allowed me to pay for an apartment, living expenses, and Community College when rooming with a buddy. I still had enough for a few minor trips here and there throughout the year, for instance to the beach. Frankly, for a young guy, it was relatively comfortable--of course, if something happened to me that made me unable to work for 2 months, I would have been screwed, as there was not enough room for savings. Overall, I am convinced that no matter how much people make per year, they would find a way to push their spending to the limit regardless--and then still complain about the same perceived monetary issues.

Now, again, there are problems with the current set up, as you point out--not least of which being you will have to give away a huge portion of your life to it. However, even with that, in the US, there is the potential to invest money in a savvy manner that could make that unnecessary as well.

Last edited by xMathFanx; May 3rd, 2018 at 12:20 AM.
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Old May 3rd, 2018, 04:43 AM   #18
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Oh my! You are really out of touch. First of all $50,000 income for ONE person might be just fine...but for a family of 4 or 5? Secondly, housing costs vary. Families living in CA or NY can't possibly live on $50,000 and that scenario is being repeated all over the country. We have property in both AZ and CO. Our CO property has almost doubled in 5 years. The same is starting to happen in AZ...even in the retirement and middle class communities.
Nearly 2/3 of housing in the U.S. has hit an all-time high.
Housing prices and rentals are sky rocketing! Most Americans are living pay check to pay check and deep in credit card debt.
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Old May 3rd, 2018, 07:02 AM   #19
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@xMathFanx

Oh my! You are really out of touch. First of all $50,000 income for ONE person might be just fine...but for a family of 4 or 5?
@Clara

Thank you for highlighting my point and supporting my argument.

Also, did you read what I said? $50,000ish per year, per person. If you have a married couple, that is $100,000 a year--not an issue at all. Now, there is potentially an issue with having to work consistently without breaks, but then again, as I stated, there are potentially ways around that with investing wisely.

Edit: Or, if one parent stays home with the kids, there are now extremely flexible reasonable pay jobs from home with little to no minimum hours. Then, if the full-time worker puts in an extra shift spread out over the weekend (or week), and the stay-at-home parent puts in part-time work when convenient, then you can easily push that 50k a year to 65-70k without much difficulty at all.

Last edited by xMathFanx; May 3rd, 2018 at 07:12 AM.
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Old May 3rd, 2018, 07:06 AM   #20
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@xMathFanx

Secondly, housing costs vary. Families living in CA or NY can't possibly live on $50,000 and that scenario is being repeated all over the country.

Nearly 2/3 of housing in the U.S. has hit an all-time high.
Housing prices and rentals are sky rocketing! Most Americans are living pay check to pay check and deep in credit card debt.
@Clara

(A) Then live somewhere else--i.e. don't be an idiot and attempt to live outside one's means.

(B ) How 'most people live' (or choose to live) is a separate matter to the opportunities available.
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