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Old June 30th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #1
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10 Reasons Why Barack Obama Is one Of The Worst Presidents In American History.

For all of you Obama supporters out there, I just wanted to point out just some of the many reasons why Obama is one of the worst presidents in American history. * *After you've read mine, to make things interesting, create a list of 10 reasons why G. W. Bush (or any other recent Republican President) was one of the worst presidents in history. * You may also include any reasons you may have of why my facts are untrue. * Than we can compare our lists and maybe have some independents decide who makes their president look worse.



We'll, here's my list.



1. * President Obama introduced a healthcare bill that forces Americans to buy a service. * This he claimed was not a tax, and simply a penalty. * He continuously reaffirmed that that was the case, despite the fact that more than half the population thought the bill was in violation of the constitution. * When it came time for the court to decide whether it lived or not, the President's lawyers argued that it was legal because it was a tax and congress has the power to tax people. * Now the President is denying it again. * This is deception.

2. *The President has used Executive privilege to allow his Attorney General not to turn over documents related to the Fast and Furious scandal. * He is obviously hiding something from everyone. * If he can't give up at least half of the documents, you know that something big is happening behind the scenes. * **

3. *The President has made some very clearly politically motivated over the course of his term in office, arguably more than any president in modern American history. * The most recent of these was his recent temporary immigration reform. * *He had promised that he would have done it much earlier when his party controlled both houses of congress. But no, he had to wait until the election year so he could gain more support among Hispanic voters before they forgot.

4. *The president has almost doubled our national debt in just 3.5 years, something that has never happened in American history. * We've accumulated more debt in the past 42 months than all of the previous 232 years of this republic. That's impossible to overlook.

5. *This president is also involved in the leaking of some of our most confidential secrets. * It's certain they either came from someone high up in his cabinet that HE choose. *Regardless, he only launched an investigation after conservatives demanded he do so. * Wouldn't most people want an it to start immediately to insure that the *traitor to our government could put in jail as soon as possible and not do anymore damage.

6. * President Obama is absolutely terrible at diplomacy. * He's convinced the Iranians that the US won't stop their nuclear programs and we'd never attack them unless they attacked us. * An Israeli ambassador even said "they aren't afraid of us"! * You know that the president is sending a weak message when any nation isn't afraid of the world's superpower.

7. * The President has flip flopped more than once on the issue of gay marriage; this shows that we can never know what he truly stands for.

8. *Unemployment is higher than when President Obama first took office and income is down. *These stats should be much better. * The president has been limiting economic growth because he has been limiting economic freedom for the job creators.

9. * President Obama has been supporting environmentalists by giving them tens of billions in funding and subsidies despite the much more pressing concerns *that can't be solved without government and are much more practical to fix.

10. The President has refused to work with the other party on anything. * He's always late on passing the budget because of this, among other things. * It's very possible to work with the other party, you just have to compromise on some things-Reagan did it very well. *President Obama can't just blame the Republicans every time the Feds don't act fast enough. * This is one of the prime indicators of a good president, and Mr. Obama lacks it.



In short, President Obama is a selfish, unethical, deceptive, and just all around bad leader. * I'll say it in the words of Sarah Palin: *Obama lies, freedom dies.

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Old July 1st, 2012, 06:38 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Politicskid View Post
For all of you Obama supporters out there, I just wanted to point out just some of the many reasons why Obama is one of the worst presidents in American history. After you've read mine, to make things interesting, create a list of 10 reasons why G. W. Bush (or any other recent Republican President) was one of the worst presidents in history. You may also include any reasons you may have of why my facts are untrue. Than we can compare our lists and maybe have some independents decide who makes their president look worse.



We'll, here's my list.



1. President Obama introduced a healthcare bill that forces Americans to buy a service. This he claimed was not a tax, and simply a penalty. He continuously reaffirmed that that was the case, despite the fact that more than half the population thought the bill was in violation of the constitution. When it came time for the court to decide whether it lived or not, the President's lawyers argued that it was legal because it was a tax and congress has the power to tax people. Now the President is denying it again. This is deception.

2. The President has used Executive privilege to allow his Attorney General not to turn over documents related to the Fast and Furious scandal. He is obviously hiding something from everyone. If he can't give up at least half of the documents, you know that something big is happening behind the scenes.

3. The President has made some very clearly politically motivated over the course of his term in office, arguably more than any president in modern American history. The most recent of these was his recent temporary immigration reform. He had promised that he would have done it much earlier when his party controlled both houses of congress. But no, he had to wait until the election year so he could gain more support among Hispanic voters before they forgot.

4. The president has almost doubled our national debt in just 3.5 years, something that has never happened in American history. We've accumulated more debt in the past 42 months than all of the previous 232 years of this republic. That's impossible to overlook.

5. This president is also involved in the leaking of some of our most confidential secrets. It's certain they either came from someone high up in his cabinet that HE choose. Regardless, he only launched an investigation after conservatives demanded he do so. Wouldn't most people want an it to start immediately to insure that the traitor to our government could put in jail as soon as possible and not do anymore damage.

6. President Obama is absolutely terrible at diplomacy. He's convinced the Iranians that the US won't stop their nuclear programs and we'd never attack them unless they attacked us. An Israeli ambassador even said "they aren't afraid of us"! You know that the president is sending a weak message when any nation isn't afraid of the world's superpower.

7. The President has flip flopped more than once on the issue of gay marriage; this shows that we can never know what he truly stands for.

8. Unemployment is higher than when President Obama first took office and income is down. These stats should be much better. The president has been limiting economic growth because he has been limiting economic freedom for the job creators.

9. President Obama has been supporting environmentalists by giving them tens of billions in funding and subsidies despite the much more pressing concerns that can't be solved without government and are much more practical to fix.

10. The President has refused to work with the other party on anything. He's always late on passing the budget because of this, among other things. It's very possible to work with the other party, you just have to compromise on some things-Reagan did it very well. President Obama can't just blame the Republicans every time the Feds don't act fast enough. This is one of the prime indicators of a good president, and Mr. Obama lacks it.



In short, President Obama is a selfish, unethical, deceptive, and just all around bad leader. I'll say it in the words of Sarah Palin: Obama lies, freedom dies.


Being a Libertarian I am no fan of Obama.



But being a Libertarian I am a fan of the truth...and there are some things in your post that are just plain wrong.



2. They have given up well over half of the documents requested. A program exactly like Fast and Furious was initiated under GWB. The fact that the Republicans are screaming about it now is just proof that the GOP is trying to politicize this issue.



3. You think Obama is the ONLY President to make "clearly politically motivated" decisions?



4. The President has NOT "almost doubled the national debt in just 3.5 years". When Obama took office the national debt was about 10 trillion and now it is about 15 trillion. That's an additional 5 trillion in debt...not even close to doubling our debt and nowhere near "accumulating more in the last 42 months than all of the previous 232 years". In fact it was GWB who came MUCH closer to doubling our national debt (from 6 trillion to 10 trillion) but, admittedly, it did take him 8 years to do it.



8. The US economy is MASSIVE....it does not just turn on a dime. When Obama took office the recession that started under Bush could not just be turned around. While it is true that unemployment is higher than when Obama took office, it is lower than when what it was at its peak. Imagine a cruise ship heading towards an iceberg. The captain of the ship orders the ship full ahead directly towards the iceberg. The First Officer, realizing the captain has gone insane, takes command and orders the ship to turn away from iceberg...it takes a while to get a ship that massive to turn...but you're complaining that we are closer to the iceberg than when the First Officer took over when we are actually starting to move away from it.



10. This can also be seen as the other party refusing to work with the President. It's obvious that the GOP is purging it's membership (and purging the politicians in office) over "ideological purity"...any GOP congressman who even LOOKS like he might be willing to compromise with the Democrats finds himself in a primary battle against a well funded "tea party" opponent. This has the effect of making GOPers unwilling to even CONSIDER compromise.



Obama is bad....but in some ways no worse than the GOP President who came before him.



I am a staunch opponent of any kind of "big government" policies...thus I have very low marks for Obama...but it is also the reason I have very low marks for the GOP too.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 10:31 AM   #3
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From conservative, to libertarian, and now a progressive gets to have a say. You both are wrong. This will be a rebuttal to you guys false accusations about our president.



1.) Yes Obama 1st claimed that the ACA mandate is not a tax, but soon later argued before the courts that in fact it is. This was before the USSC ruling that finally this Thursday, agreed with the Obama administration that the mandate is a tax and not just a penalty. Most liberals like myself have always argued that the mandate is in fact a tax. Yes, most Americans didn't want Obamacare, but not because they believed it's unconstitutional. Most American wanted Single-Payer system. Believe it or not, more Americans are leaning in favor of Obama's ACA as the benefits accumulate each year. Obamacare actually have a prevision in the ACA that allow each state to create their own Single-Payer system after the year 2014-16. States like Vermont and Massachusetts have already started. Obamacare isn't perfect (yet) but it's a much better system than what we had before.



2.) Here's the truth about the Fast and Furious "scandal" thanks to waitingtables http://www.nationalr...bert-verbruggen

http://features.blog...?iid=SF_F_River



3.) No you're wrong because Obama have tried passing the Dream Act I believe 3 times before and the republicans blocked it 3 times. The republicans are just whining that they can never get the Hispanic vote. Which they never had to begin with.



4.) The president doubled our national debt? That's a surprise because most conservatives say that he more than quadrupled the national debt. Either case both you and Nwolfe are wrong. Obama only spent over $1.4 trillion dollars. The reason why the deficit sky rocketed so to almost $16 trillion dollars because Obama put Bush's spending (which he hide from the national debt) on the budget. Bush's tax cuts, Bush's proscription drug policy, and Bush's wars is what Obama in the budget that increase the national debt which republican now blame on Obama. That's a lie. http://www.whitehous...s-national-debt

http://www.theatlant...ceiling/242484/



5.) This one seems made up. If anyone needs to be prosecuted it's Bush and his cronies for lying us into an illegal war.



6.) This is a silly one and is of non importance. Iran isn't even making a nuclear weapon. I think you're just filling up space. You should have wrote in your title 5 reasons why Obama is the worst president. Even your thread title is false too.



7.) He stand on the right side of Civil Right and that's all that matter now. I rather have someone who flip flops from being a bigot than someone who stays a bigot. Moving on



8.) Actually no. Unemployment would be 7.3% right now if it wasn't for the republican governors practicing austerity in their states by laying off teacher, polices, and firefighters. http://ourfuture.org...yment-right-now



9.) What?



10.) The republicans are deliberately doing everything possible to not let important progressive legislation though by filibustering and obstructing everything. The republicans have filibustered more doing the Obama administration than any presidency.



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Old July 1st, 2012, 10:51 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
From conservative, to libertarian, and now a progressive gets to have a say. You both are wrong. This will be a rebuttal to you guys false accusations about our president.



1.) Yes Obama 1st claimed that the ACA mandate is not a tax, but soon later argued before the courts that in fact it is. This was before the USSC ruling that finally this Thursday, agreed with the Obama administration that the mandate is a tax and not just a penalty. Most liberals like myself have always argued that the mandate is in fact a tax. Yes, most Americans didn't want Obamacare, but not because they believed it's unconstitutional. Most American wanted Single-Payer system. Believe it or not, more Americans are leaning in favor of Obama's ACA as the benefits accumulate each year. Obamacare actually have a prevision in the ACA that allow each state to create their own Single-Payer system after the year 2014-16. States like Vermont and Massachusetts have already started. Obamacare isn't perfect (yet) but it's a much better system than what we had before.



2.) Here's the truth about the Fast and Furious "scandal" thanks to waitingtables http://www.nationalr...bert-verbruggen

http://features.blog...?iid=SF_F_River



3.) No you're wrong because Obama have tried passing the Dream Act I believe 3 times before and the republicans blocked it 3 times. The republicans are just whining that they can never get the Hispanic vote. Which they never had to begin with.



4.) The president doubled our national debt? That's a surprise because most conservatives say that he more than quadrupled the national debt. Either case both you and Nwolfe are wrong. Obama only spent over $1.4 trillion dollars. The reason why the deficit sky rocketed so to almost $16 trillion dollars because Obama put Bush's spending (which he hide from the national debt) on the budget. Bush's tax cuts, Bush's proscription drug policy, and Bush's wars is what Obama in the budget that increase the national debt which republican now blame on Obama. That's a lie. http://www.whitehous...s-national-debt

http://www.theatlant...ceiling/242484/



5.) This one seems made up. If anyone needs to be prosecuted it's Bush and his cronies for lying us into an illegal war.



6.) This is a silly one and is of non importance. Iran isn't even making a nuclear weapon. I think you're just filling up space. You should have wrote in your title 5 reasons why Obama is the worst president. Even your thread title is false too.



7.) He stand on the right side of Civil Right and that's all that matter now. I rather have someone who flip flops from being a bigot than someone who stays a bigot. Moving on



8.) Actually no. Unemployment would be 7.3% right now if it wasn't for the republican governors practicing austerity in their states by laying off teacher, polices, and firefighters. http://ourfuture.org...yment-right-now



9.) What?



10.) The republicans are deliberately doing everything possible to not let important progressive legislation though by filibustering and obstructing everything. The republicans have filibustered more doing the Obama administration than any presidency.





Interesting read. I am not a expert on US president and will not claim to be so I do not have much to contribute to this argument as this is not my strong suit.

I agree with most of the points though from what I HAVE read, but have to agree that Fayt's here seems the most credible and backed up.



It also supports the impressions I have regarding Obama vs other US presidents. I do not think it is fair to say Obama is the worst or one of the worst presidents in US history as most of the points listed against him has been done by many other presidents such as deceiving, make political motivated decisions etc.



To my knowledge though Obama has not done much to support environmentalists as a matter of fact all the graphs I have seen on the issue show that the US is one of the countries who has done the least for the environment. I don't know the truth about the Fast and Furious scandal but would tend to believe the version given by WT.



Regarding diplomacy Obama may not be great, but he has been far more liked in Europe than Bush, so failed he has not and a "terrible" label may again be a bit over the top.



Anyway Obama is not a great president no doubt about that, but none of the worst I think is very unfair considering that he is not responsible for the financial crisis he was unfortunate enough to be president during and which clearly has made is political success far more difficult and has a lot to do with the poor economy.



I think it would be good to keep in mind that none of us have lived under the majority of these leaders and in their time which would make it very difficult getting a clear impression of what it was like, and how we would have seen the leadership in those days.



Perhaps a debate on who is the best or worst president might benefit from a list of critirias of what qualities a good president should have.

I for one would love a trustworthy leader, but when is the last time ANY country has had this?



Truth, education and trust are some of the keys to progress and good leadership and as a progressive this is of great importance to me.

Its not easy getting information on american leaders living in europe, so the debates here I think are some of my best chances to get to understand whats going on "over there".
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Old July 1st, 2012, 11:45 AM   #5
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I have no idea where you get some of your ideas from....



But the most outlandish one is about the spending during the Obama administration.



Lets get a couple of terms defined



Fiscal Year Revenue - Fiscal Year outlays = (- deficit / + surplus)



National debt is simply calculated by taking the deficit / surplus of each fiscal year and adding them together.



Given those two facts and the fact that the national debt has increased about 5 trillion dollars over the last 3 1/2 years gives you the simple conclusion that during the 3 1/2 years Obama has been in office the Federal Govt has spent about 5 trillion more than it took in.



That's just the fact of the matter...you can't spin that...it's basic math.



This flies in the face of your claim that "Obama only spent over 1.4 trillion dollars"....it is just not possible to have "spent 1.4 trillion" and yet rack up more than 5 trillion in debt.



Numbers do not lie.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 12:13 PM   #6
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I think to make an honest assessment of Obama and his presidency regarding being the worse, or at least 10 reasons why he is the worse, he needs to be compared to presidents generally regarded as the worse. Pick any president and name how many reasons they are worse than Obama. I have done this, of course it is subjective, and cannot find one actually worse in the aggregate. There are two criteria that I used: immediate impact and long term impact on this country.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 01:53 PM   #7
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I think to make an honest assessment of Obama and his presidency regarding being the worse, or at least 10 reasons why he is the worse, he needs to be compared to presidents generally regarded as the worse. Pick any president and name how many reasons they are worse than Obama. I have done this, of course it is subjective, and cannot find one actually worse in the aggregate. There are two criteria that I used: immediate impact and long term impact on this country.


Well since its easier to find info on a living president than a dead one, you would also need to pick reasons why the "worst" presidents are "better" to label Obama the "worst president in American history". What are some of the worst presidents to compare him to? Bush, Nixon? The US news suggest Buchanan followed by Harding and Andrew Johnson.



http://www.usnews.co...st-presidents/2



About.com choose Andrew Johnson followed by Woodrow Wilson and Andrew Jackson.



http://civilliberty....idents-Ever.htm



I can be a long debate just to come to agree on WHO the worst president is, and then to find areas to compare them to Obama would take even longer and be very subjective as times have changed quite a bit. I think the list of the 10 points is fine and for can anyone here even make a list of 10 points on every US president?'



But being the progressive I am, I see little point in discussing past presidents for they are in the past. I would rather look for ways to improve things as they are NOW and find it much more interesting to read about the "current" US president than looking back on the "past ones"
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyb' timestamp='1341173632' post='410331

I think to make an honest assessment of Obama and his presidency regarding being the worse, or at least 10 reasons why he is the worse, he needs to be compared to presidents generally regarded as the worse. Pick any president and name how many reasons they are worse than Obama. I have done this, of course it is subjective, and cannot find one actually worse in the aggregate. There are two criteria that I used: immediate impact and long term impact on this country.


Well since its easier to find info on a living president than a dead one, you would also need to pick reasons why the "worst" presidents are "better" to label Obama the "worst president in American history". What are some of the worst presidents to compare him to? Bush, Nixon? The US news suggest Buchanan followed by Harding and Andrew Johnson.



http://www.usnews.co...st-presidents/2



About.com choose Andrew Johnson followed by Woodrow Wilson and Andrew Jackson.



http://civilliberty....idents-Ever.htm



I can be a long debate just to come to agree on WHO the worst president is, and then to find areas to compare them to Obama would take even longer and be very subjective as times have changed quite a bit. I think the list of the 10 points is fine and for can anyone here even make a list of 10 points on every US president?'



But being the progressive I am, I see little point in discussing past presidents for they are in the past. I would rather look for ways to improve things as they are NOW and find it much more interesting to read about the "current" US president than looking back on the "past ones"


I'm not quite following your logic. This is a discussion regarding Obama being one of the worst presidents and why? That requires sifting through history. You can't improve anything going forward unless you learn from the mistakes from the past. Regarding improving things as they are NOW, would require applying the principles of presidents from over 200 years ago if you want to operate this country on the principles it was founding upon. Looking forward without guidance from the past, especially with the course we are on, is a black dark tunnel.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey' timestamp='1341179615' post='410333

[quote name='Jimmyb' timestamp='1341173632' post='410331']

I think to make an honest assessment of Obama and his presidency regarding being the worse, or at least 10 reasons why he is the worse, he needs to be compared to presidents generally regarded as the worse. Pick any president and name how many reasons they are worse than Obama. I have done this, of course it is subjective, and cannot find one actually worse in the aggregate. There are two criteria that I used: immediate impact and long term impact on this country.


Well since its easier to find info on a living president than a dead one, you would also need to pick reasons why the "worst" presidents are "better" to label Obama the "worst president in American history". What are some of the worst presidents to compare him to? Bush, Nixon? The US news suggest Buchanan followed by Harding and Andrew Johnson.



http://www.usnews.co...st-presidents/2



About.com choose Andrew Johnson followed by Woodrow Wilson and Andrew Jackson.



http://civilliberty....idents-Ever.htm



I can be a long debate just to come to agree on WHO the worst president is, and then to find areas to compare them to Obama would take even longer and be very subjective as times have changed quite a bit. I think the list of the 10 points is fine and for can anyone here even make a list of 10 points on every US president?'



But being the progressive I am, I see little point in discussing past presidents for they are in the past. I would rather look for ways to improve things as they are NOW and find it much more interesting to read about the "current" US president than looking back on the "past ones"


I'm not quite following your logic. This is a discussion regarding Obama being one of the worst presidents and why? That requires sifting through history. You can't improve anything going forward unless you learn from the mistakes from the past. Regarding improving things as they are NOW, would require applying the principles of presidents from over 200 years ago if you want to operate this country on the principles it was founding upon. Looking forward without guidance from the past, especially with the course we are on, is a black dark tunnel.

[/quote]



I agree 100% the purpose of going to the past to LEARN from it. But what is better to learn who is WORST and what doesn't work or learning who is BEST and what does work?

Its a matter of if you prefer looking at the glass half-empty or half-full. I don't think we have learned much at all if we try to critisize those who can do better than us.



Anyone who can do something good that we can not we should show at least "some" gratitude for rather than try to put them down when we have no better solution to offer.

My suggestion is that we look at the good things people do rather than the bad, and that we either show gratitude for what we have or ourselves come up with suggestions of how to make it better.



Tearing things down is not learning or progression, it is ingratitude and degression. I hope that makes my "logic" a little more clear



Regarding the post on 10 reasons Obama is worst it is in general not a "progressive" topic, but it can take a progressive spin if a list of attribute or qualities of a "great president" is made to compare to the "not so great ones".



Otherwise this is just negative slander which only has one purpose and that is to justify our own "un-progressed" state by comparing it to someone worse than us, but this will neither be good for us, others, Obama or anyone else. Doing this will have disastrous long term effect as we will come to "accept" ourselves while thinking negative of others and having limited or no progress because we don't see something better to progress toward.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyb' timestamp='1341181090' post='410334

[quote name='Monkey' timestamp='1341179615' post='410333']

[quote name='Jimmyb' timestamp='1341173632' post='410331']

I think to make an honest assessment of Obama and his presidency regarding being the worse, or at least 10 reasons why he is the worse, he needs to be compared to presidents generally regarded as the worse. Pick any president and name how many reasons they are worse than Obama. I have done this, of course it is subjective, and cannot find one actually worse in the aggregate. There are two criteria that I used: immediate impact and long term impact on this country.


Well since its easier to find info on a living president than a dead one, you would also need to pick reasons why the "worst" presidents are "better" to label Obama the "worst president in American history". What are some of the worst presidents to compare him to? Bush, Nixon? The US news suggest Buchanan followed by Harding and Andrew Johnson.



http://www.usnews.co...st-presidents/2



About.com choose Andrew Johnson followed by Woodrow Wilson and Andrew Jackson.



http://civilliberty....idents-Ever.htm



I can be a long debate just to come to agree on WHO the worst president is, and then to find areas to compare them to Obama would take even longer and be very subjective as times have changed quite a bit. I think the list of the 10 points is fine and for can anyone here even make a list of 10 points on every US president?'



But being the progressive I am, I see little point in discussing past presidents for they are in the past. I would rather look for ways to improve things as they are NOW and find it much more interesting to read about the "current" US president than looking back on the "past ones"


I'm not quite following your logic. This is a discussion regarding Obama being one of the worst presidents and why? That requires sifting through history. You can't improve anything going forward unless you learn from the mistakes from the past. Regarding improving things as they are NOW, would require applying the principles of presidents from over 200 years ago if you want to operate this country on the principles it was founding upon. Looking forward without guidance from the past, especially with the course we are on, is a black dark tunnel.

[/quote]



I agree 100% the purpose of going to the past to LEARN from it. But what is better to learn who is WORST and what doesn't work or learning who is BEST and what does work?

Its a matter of if you prefer looking at the glass half-empty or half-full. I don't think we have learned much at all if we try to critisize those who can do better than us.



Anyone who can do something good that we can not we should show at least "some" gratitude for rather than try to put them down when we have no better solution to offer.

My suggestion is that we look at the good things people do rather than the bad, and that we either show gratitude for what we have or ourselves come up with suggestions of how to make it better.



Tearing things down is not learning or progression, it is ingratitude and degression. I hope that makes my "logic" a little more clear



Regarding the post on 10 reasons Obama is worst it is in general not a "progressive" topic, but it can take a progressive spin if a list of attribute or qualities of a "great president" is made to compare to the "not so great ones".



Otherwise this is just negative slander which only has one purpose and that is to justify our own "un-progressed" state by comparing it to someone worse than us, but this will neither be good for us, others, Obama or anyone else. Doing this will have disastrous long term effect as we will come to "accept" ourselves while thinking negative of others and having limited or no progress because we don't see something better to progress toward.

[/quote]



I original post was just trying to stay within the parameters of the topic. Your statement is very valid, but perhaps for another topic. But I don't share your progressive ideology, so that may be causing our connecting on this topic. Moving forward and changing is not necessarily positive progress, sometimes the best ideas and principles are sitting in the past and need to be re-applied.

.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey' timestamp='1341181761' post='410335

[quote name='Jimmyb' timestamp='1341181090' post='410334']

[quote name='Monkey' timestamp='1341179615' post='410333']

[quote name='Jimmyb' timestamp='1341173632' post='410331']

I think to make an honest assessment of Obama and his presidency regarding being the worse, or at least 10 reasons why he is the worse, he needs to be compared to presidents generally regarded as the worse. Pick any president and name how many reasons they are worse than Obama. I have done this, of course it is subjective, and cannot find one actually worse in the aggregate. There are two criteria that I used: immediate impact and long term impact on this country.


Well since its easier to find info on a living president than a dead one, you would also need to pick reasons why the "worst" presidents are "better" to label Obama the "worst president in American history". What are some of the worst presidents to compare him to? Bush, Nixon? The US news suggest Buchanan followed by Harding and Andrew Johnson.



http://www.usnews.co...st-presidents/2



About.com choose Andrew Johnson followed by Woodrow Wilson and Andrew Jackson.



http://civilliberty....idents-Ever.htm



I can be a long debate just to come to agree on WHO the worst president is, and then to find areas to compare them to Obama would take even longer and be very subjective as times have changed quite a bit. I think the list of the 10 points is fine and for can anyone here even make a list of 10 points on every US president?'



But being the progressive I am, I see little point in discussing past presidents for they are in the past. I would rather look for ways to improve things as they are NOW and find it much more interesting to read about the "current" US president than looking back on the "past ones"


I'm not quite following your logic. This is a discussion regarding Obama being one of the worst presidents and why? That requires sifting through history. You can't improve anything going forward unless you learn from the mistakes from the past. Regarding improving things as they are NOW, would require applying the principles of presidents from over 200 years ago if you want to operate this country on the principles it was founding upon. Looking forward without guidance from the past, especially with the course we are on, is a black dark tunnel.

[/quote]



I agree 100% the purpose of going to the past to LEARN from it. But what is better to learn who is WORST and what doesn't work or learning who is BEST and what does work?

Its a matter of if you prefer looking at the glass half-empty or half-full. I don't think we have learned much at all if we try to critisize those who can do better than us.



Anyone who can do something good that we can not we should show at least "some" gratitude for rather than try to put them down when we have no better solution to offer.

My suggestion is that we look at the good things people do rather than the bad, and that we either show gratitude for what we have or ourselves come up with suggestions of how to make it better.



Tearing things down is not learning or progression, it is ingratitude and degression. I hope that makes my "logic" a little more clear



Regarding the post on 10 reasons Obama is worst it is in general not a "progressive" topic, but it can take a progressive spin if a list of attribute or qualities of a "great president" is made to compare to the "not so great ones".



Otherwise this is just negative slander which only has one purpose and that is to justify our own "un-progressed" state by comparing it to someone worse than us, but this will neither be good for us, others, Obama or anyone else. Doing this will have disastrous long term effect as we will come to "accept" ourselves while thinking negative of others and having limited or no progress because we don't see something better to progress toward.

[/quote]



I original post was just trying to stay within the parameters of the topic. Your statement is very valid, but perhaps for another topic. But I don't share your progressive ideology, so that may be causing our connecting on this topic. Moving forward and changing is not necessarily positive progress, sometimes the best ideas and principles are sitting in the past and need to be re-applied.

.

[/quote]



I appreciate you opinion and input and I DID reply to the topic and only made a side note about the direction I would like it to take like you do in your comment. In this we agree.



About the past being re-applied I would be interested in knowing what past it is you WANT to re-apply and want past you think you CAN re-apply, for I do not believe things will EVER be the same as the past, but I do believe it can become as good or better.



It may be slightly of topic here, and yet it IS related and not as far off topic as I have seen many other topics go here, but I understand if you don't wish to discuss this here or now.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 03:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Fayt



I have no idea where you get some of your ideas from....



But the most outlandish one is about the spending during the Obama administration.



Lets get a couple of terms defined



Fiscal Year Revenue - Fiscal Year outlays = (- deficit / + surplus)



National debt is simply calculated by taking the deficit / surplus of each fiscal year and adding them together.



Given those two facts and the fact that the national debt has increased about 5 trillion dollars over the last 3 1/2 years gives you the simple conclusion that during the 3 1/2 years Obama has been in office the Federal Govt has spent about 5 trillion more than it took in.



That's just the fact of the matter...you can't spin that...it's basic math.



This flies in the face of your claim that "Obama only spent over 1.4 trillion dollars"....it is just not possible to have "spent 1.4 trillion" and yet rack up more than 5 trillion in debt.



Numbers do not lie.


I'm not spinning anything, it's basic logic. The biggest contributors to our debt is the Bush tax cuts, along with his wars and Medicare part D. Bush hid this away from the national debt despite his already blowing up the national debt. Obama came into office and then put Bush's wars, proscription drug program, and his tax cuts on the national debt to put it in simple terms. This blew up the debt to its current over $15 trillion dollars. Obama tried rolling back the largest contributor to the debt which is the Bush tax cuts and the republican blocked him.



What you're doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11. No, that's Bush's fault. Some how you get this lie that Obama over tippled the national debt by the lying right-wingers and we all know the studies concerning right-wing news. They lie.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 03:29 PM   #13
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It's true Bush kept sending Iraq Spending Bills to Congress one after another for 6 years. Each one was in the $150-$200 BILLION range.



Bush always used emotional blackmail to push these bills through. Our boys must have the best equipment and supplies to get the job done.



All of this spending was over and above the Annual Defence Budgets for each of those years.



Not one Iraq Spending Bill was ever offset by an attempt to cut spending elsewhere.



Most of the money was borrowed from overseas lenders, most of whom had ironically opposed the Iraq War in the UN.



And while racking up these enormous loans Bush cut taxes for America's rich.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 03:34 PM   #14
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Lest we forget, by the day Obama was inaugurated in Jan 2009:



-Lehman Brothers had gone out of business over a weekend



-the Global Financial Crisis was in full swing



-Bush had signed the TARP bank bailouts and the auto companies bailout



-tens of millions of Americans lost all the equity in their homes and their savings



-700,000 Americans lost their job THAT MONTH. They all tightened their belts, stopped paying income tax and started claiming unemployment insurance



Is it any wonder the deficit has risen during Obama's Presidency?



Does anybody seriously believe things would be better had McCain/Palin won in 2008??
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Old July 1st, 2012, 03:34 PM   #15
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Hmmm...I don't like Bush.







Maybe a list of 10 reasons why Bush was one of America's worst presidents is needed.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 07:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35' timestamp='1341171947' post='410329

Fayt



I have no idea where you get some of your ideas from....



But the most outlandish one is about the spending during the Obama administration.



Lets get a couple of terms defined



Fiscal Year Revenue - Fiscal Year outlays = (- deficit / + surplus)



National debt is simply calculated by taking the deficit / surplus of each fiscal year and adding them together.



Given those two facts and the fact that the national debt has increased about 5 trillion dollars over the last 3 1/2 years gives you the simple conclusion that during the 3 1/2 years Obama has been in office the Federal Govt has spent about 5 trillion more than it took in.



That's just the fact of the matter...you can't spin that...it's basic math.



This flies in the face of your claim that "Obama only spent over 1.4 trillion dollars"....it is just not possible to have "spent 1.4 trillion" and yet rack up more than 5 trillion in debt.



Numbers do not lie.


I'm not spinning anything, it's basic logic. The biggest contributors to our debt is the Bush tax cuts, along with his wars and Medicare part D. Bush hid this away from the national debt despite his already blowing up the national debt. Obama came into office and then put Bush's wars, proscription drug program, and his tax cuts on the national debt to put it in simple terms. This blew up the debt to its current over $15 trillion dollars. Obama tried rolling back the largest contributor to the debt which is the Bush tax cuts and the republican blocked him.



What you're doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11. No, that's Bush's fault. Some how you get this lie that Obama over tippled the national debt by the lying right-wingers and we all know the studies concerning right-wing news. They lie.


It may be basic logic, but it is not the truth.



The federal government’s revenue increased under Bush’s tax cuts, as it did under Harding, Coolidge, Kennedy, and Reagan. Bush’s problem was spending. Let’s forget logic and look at the numbers: From 2004 to 2007, the federal tax revenue went up by $800 billion. This was also the largest four year increase in tax revenue in the history of the United States. The total revenue for the government under the Bush tax cuts for each year from 2003 to 2007 was, 2003-$1.8 trillion, 2004-$1.9 trillion, 2005-$2.2 trillion, 2006-$2.4 trillion, and 2007-$2.6 trillion. The deficit grew in the first part of the recession to $400 billion, the increased revenue from the tax cuts cut it to $200 billion by 2008.



One thing and one thing only causes a defict: spending.



I agree the Medicare Part D was a stupid idea.



But it is a misstatement of fact that the Bush tax cuts caused the increase in the debt. And the largest tax increase in the history of this nation just happened when the Supreme Court affirmed Obamacare. Making Obama the president who gave the American middleclass the largest tax increase in our history.



Regarding what I am doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11, which is like blaming Bush for the recession; which was caused by the housing bubble created by the Democratic Party when almost half of all mortgages were probably going to default. But, that is a longer and more complex story.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 07:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
Hmmm...I don't like Bush.





Maybe a list of 10 reasons why Bush was one of America's worst presidents is needed.


Funny. I could add a lot to that list. I do like Bush; but he sure did make a lot of fundimental mistakes. To start off my top ten, Iraq, immigration, Medicare Part D. A good start.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 07:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt' timestamp='1341184970' post='410349

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1341171947' post='410329']

Fayt



I have no idea where you get some of your ideas from....



But the most outlandish one is about the spending during the Obama administration.



Lets get a couple of terms defined



Fiscal Year Revenue - Fiscal Year outlays = (- deficit / + surplus)



National debt is simply calculated by taking the deficit / surplus of each fiscal year and adding them together.



Given those two facts and the fact that the national debt has increased about 5 trillion dollars over the last 3 1/2 years gives you the simple conclusion that during the 3 1/2 years Obama has been in office the Federal Govt has spent about 5 trillion more than it took in.



That's just the fact of the matter...you can't spin that...it's basic math.



This flies in the face of your claim that "Obama only spent over 1.4 trillion dollars"....it is just not possible to have "spent 1.4 trillion" and yet rack up more than 5 trillion in debt.



Numbers do not lie.


I'm not spinning anything, it's basic logic. The biggest contributors to our debt is the Bush tax cuts, along with his wars and Medicare part D. Bush hid this away from the national debt despite his already blowing up the national debt. Obama came into office and then put Bush's wars, proscription drug program, and his tax cuts on the national debt to put it in simple terms. This blew up the debt to its current over $15 trillion dollars. Obama tried rolling back the largest contributor to the debt which is the Bush tax cuts and the republican blocked him.



What you're doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11. No, that's Bush's fault. Some how you get this lie that Obama over tippled the national debt by the lying right-wingers and we all know the studies concerning right-wing news. They lie.


It may be basic logic, but it is not the truth.



The federal government’s revenue increased under Bush’s tax cuts, as it did under Harding, Coolidge, Kennedy, and Reagan. Bush’s problem was spending. Let’s forget logic and look at the numbers: From 2004 to 2007, the federal tax revenue went up by $800 billion. This was also the largest four year increase in tax revenue in the history of the United States. The total revenue for the government under the Bush tax cuts for each year from 2003 to 2007 was, 2003-$1.8 trillion, 2004-$1.9 trillion, 2005-$2.2 trillion, 2006-$2.4 trillion, and 2007-$2.6 trillion. The deficit grew in the first part of the recession to $400 billion, the increased revenue from the tax cuts cut it to $200 billion by 2008.



One thing and one thing only causes a defict: spending.



I agree the Medicare Part D was a stupid idea.



But it is a misstatement of fact that the Bush tax cuts caused the increase in the debt. And the largest tax increase in the history of this nation just happened when the Supreme Court affirmed Obamacare. Making Obama the president who gave the American middleclass the largest tax increase in our history.



Regarding what I am doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11, which is like blaming Bush for the recession; which was caused by the housing bubble created by the Democratic Party when almost half of all mortgages were probably going to default. But, that is a longer and more complex story.

[/quote]



It's impossible to say that Obama has given the largest tax increase to the middle class in our history (speaking strictly about Obamacare) since the "tax increase" only goes into effect if someone fails to purchase health insurance. If everyone purchases the insurance then there is no tax increase since no one will pay more in taxes.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyb' timestamp='1341200076' post='410379

[quote name='Fayt' timestamp='1341184970' post='410349']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1341171947' post='410329']

Fayt



I have no idea where you get some of your ideas from....



But the most outlandish one is about the spending during the Obama administration.



Lets get a couple of terms defined



Fiscal Year Revenue - Fiscal Year outlays = (- deficit / + surplus)



National debt is simply calculated by taking the deficit / surplus of each fiscal year and adding them together.



Given those two facts and the fact that the national debt has increased about 5 trillion dollars over the last 3 1/2 years gives you the simple conclusion that during the 3 1/2 years Obama has been in office the Federal Govt has spent about 5 trillion more than it took in.



That's just the fact of the matter...you can't spin that...it's basic math.



This flies in the face of your claim that "Obama only spent over 1.4 trillion dollars"....it is just not possible to have "spent 1.4 trillion" and yet rack up more than 5 trillion in debt.



Numbers do not lie.


I'm not spinning anything, it's basic logic. The biggest contributors to our debt is the Bush tax cuts, along with his wars and Medicare part D. Bush hid this away from the national debt despite his already blowing up the national debt. Obama came into office and then put Bush's wars, proscription drug program, and his tax cuts on the national debt to put it in simple terms. This blew up the debt to its current over $15 trillion dollars. Obama tried rolling back the largest contributor to the debt which is the Bush tax cuts and the republican blocked him.



What you're doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11. No, that's Bush's fault. Some how you get this lie that Obama over tippled the national debt by the lying right-wingers and we all know the studies concerning right-wing news. They lie.


It may be basic logic, but it is not the truth.



The federal government’s revenue increased under Bush’s tax cuts, as it did under Harding, Coolidge, Kennedy, and Reagan. Bush’s problem was spending. Let’s forget logic and look at the numbers: From 2004 to 2007, the federal tax revenue went up by $800 billion. This was also the largest four year increase in tax revenue in the history of the United States. The total revenue for the government under the Bush tax cuts for each year from 2003 to 2007 was, 2003-$1.8 trillion, 2004-$1.9 trillion, 2005-$2.2 trillion, 2006-$2.4 trillion, and 2007-$2.6 trillion. The deficit grew in the first part of the recession to $400 billion, the increased revenue from the tax cuts cut it to $200 billion by 2008.



One thing and one thing only causes a defict: spending.



I agree the Medicare Part D was a stupid idea.



But it is a misstatement of fact that the Bush tax cuts caused the increase in the debt. And the largest tax increase in the history of this nation just happened when the Supreme Court affirmed Obamacare. Making Obama the president who gave the American middleclass the largest tax increase in our history.



Regarding what I am doing is like blaming Obama for not protecting us by preventing the attack on the WTC on 9/11, which is like blaming Bush for the recession; which was caused by the housing bubble created by the Democratic Party when almost half of all mortgages were probably going to default. But, that is a longer and more complex story.

[/quote]



It's impossible to say that Obama has given the largest tax increase to the middle class in our history (speaking strictly about Obamacare) since the "tax increase" only goes into effect if someone fails to purchase health insurance. If everyone purchases the insurance then there is no tax increase since no one will pay more in taxes.

[/quote]



It is a matter of semantics, and is dependent on what the Obama administration decides to call it on any particular day. First it was a tax, and then they switched to the Commerce Clause. They argued it as a power under the Commerce Clause at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decided to move into the role of tax and revenue, which is reserved for the House, and deemed it a tax. Immediately, Obama states that it is not a tax. It may have a different definition before I hit post for this reply.



Each individual is now forced to spend money. Call it what you will, it is effectively the same thing. You can either purchase health insurance, which is a higher effective tax rate per individual or family the lower their income, or pay a tax/penalty. Are they both considered a tax? Does it matter what it is called when the paycheck of the middleclass is significantly smaller? It is not only the largest tax increase on the middleclass, it is a very regressive tax increase.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 08:33 PM   #20
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It doesn't matter what they call it, the fact is that the Court upheld the COnstitutionality of the mandate whether you call it that or a tax. The government has the authority to legislate it.
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