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Old January 10th, 2018, 09:43 PM   #11
Put some ice on that
 
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If it costs 30 to $40 per barrel to break even on tarsands, fracking for shale oil and new offshore drilling, that tells me that the EROEI on these "tight" oil operations are too high to keep this shit going much longer!

A sensible, responsible civilization would have already started a major Marshall-type plan to transition away from car culture and move to highspeed and light rail systems like China is actually doing already. It seems the price per barrel that the economy can afford to grow with is declining/while the price at the pump is increasing because it's taking so much more energy to extract and refine this garbage....never mind the higher carbon outputs, water consumption and other related environmental damages. At some point it seems the only thing that saves the human race from self-destruction is when the wheels of capitalism fall off because of system failure, and a new system has to get on the path towards living with much, much lower carbon, environmental footprints as well as much much less resource consumption.


People like to drive. They like the freedom that it gives them.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 07:42 PM   #12
end capitalism now
 
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People like to drive. They like the freedom that it gives them.
I have the freedom to NOT drive actually! Since moving back into a city with a good transit system..as well as being able to bike and most places I want to go, I don't have the need to keep a car in the driveway anymore, since my wife's vision doesn't allow her to drive any longer either! Besides, if I want to feel the freedom of the road, I'd rather do it when the weather's good on my bike!

The only thing I'll grant you on this point is that on the occasions when I do need to a car...I am a member of a car sharing service, so once...maybe twice a month at most, I book one of their cars that are parked at locations close to home.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 08:34 PM   #13
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I have the freedom to NOT drive actually! Since moving back into a city with a good transit system..as well as being able to bike and most places I want to go, I don't have the need to keep a car in the driveway anymore, since my wife's vision doesn't allow her to drive any longer either! Besides, if I want to feel the freedom of the road, I'd rather do it when the weather's good on my bike!

The only thing I'll grant you on this point is that on the occasions when I do need to a car...I am a member of a car sharing service, so once...maybe twice a month at most, I book one of their cars that are parked at locations close to home.
That is a great point from another person living inside of a really great urban bubble
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Old January 11th, 2018, 08:59 PM   #14
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People like to drive. They like the freedom that it gives them.
As long as they cover the external costs, I don't have a problem with it.
It's subsidizing it that bothers me.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 09:35 PM   #15
end capitalism now
 
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That is a great point from another person living inside of a really great urban bubble
And this was the way it was everywhere before WWII and the Highway Lobby(GM and Exxon) were able to commandeer government to spend billions building highways, while tearing up rail and streetcar tracks and ending bus service to cities and factories...which made it necessary for all the workers to go out and buy cars in the first place! Before that, even people living in small towns were connected by bus service or in some cases like the towns and cities along the Welland Canal - were all connected by a streetcar line running between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario.

Cars should have never gone from being a luxury to becoming a necessity that keep a lot of people working for low wages in debt and in poverty because they have no other way to get to work.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:04 PM   #16
Put some ice on that
 
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That is a great point from another person living inside of a really great urban bubble
I live in the city about 4 blocks from two major bus routes and one transfer to the light rail plus the express busses go all the way across the river south ajd all the way up to st. Cloud. I like taking the bus. But i also like to drive my car. I enjoy it. I like the fact that i can hit the border in a few hours if i want. I enjoy modifying my car and just going on road trips. 8m thinking of building a rally car this spring.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:05 PM   #17
Put some ice on that
 
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As long as they cover the external costs, I don't have a problem with it.
It's subsidizing it that bothers me.
One of the greatest posts of the year.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 10:54 AM   #18
end capitalism now
 
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I live in the city about 4 blocks from two major bus routes and one transfer to the light rail plus the express busses go all the way across the river south ajd all the way up to st. Cloud. I like taking the bus. But i also like to drive my car. I enjoy it. I like the fact that i can hit the border in a few hours if i want. I enjoy modifying my car and just going on road trips. 8m thinking of building a rally car this spring.
I'd still rather be on my bike, and not hear the noise or miss the scenery while cycling through the countryside/rather than driving on a highway!

When we tally up the total resource, energy, manufacturing, carbon and related environmental costs of private cars and a massive array of roads to support them, this is a system that can't be fixed by a conversion to electric cars. Under business as usual, the costs of car ownership and maintenance will keep on climbing, until fewer people can afford them, and even those who do will be back to driving on unpaved roads again...as is happening in a few mid-western states already.

At some point, you don't get what you want regardless of your notions about freedom! You get what society will be able to afford to continue developing.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 11:19 AM   #19
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I live in the city about 4 blocks from two major bus routes and one transfer to the light rail plus the express busses go all the way across the river south ajd all the way up to st. Cloud. I like taking the bus. But i also like to drive my car. I enjoy it. I like the fact that i can hit the border in a few hours if i want. I enjoy modifying my car and just going on road trips. 8m thinking of building a rally car this spring.
What kind of rally car ?? I was an avid autocrosser for many years. Ran an old 280Z. I bought this clunker of a vette to use as a track day car, but it needs more work than I have time for.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 11:42 PM   #20
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And this was the way it was everywhere before WWII and the Highway Lobby(GM and Exxon) were able to commandeer government to spend billions building highways, while tearing up rail and streetcar tracks and ending bus service to cities and factories...which made it necessary for all the workers to go out and buy cars in the first place! Before that, even people living in small towns were connected by bus service or in some cases like the towns and cities along the Welland Canal - were all connected by a streetcar line running between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario.

Cars should have never gone from being a luxury to becoming a necessity that keep a lot of people working for low wages in debt and in poverty because they have no other way to get to work.
Damn, we could even bring back the prairie schooners to huh
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