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Old February 13th, 2018, 12:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
And let us forget, the US is the world leader. Do we like how Obama was leading or how Trump is leading?
Obama as he said was leading from the back.. in other words he followed.


Trump is leading, Obama's policies caused NOKO to leave the negotiating table, because there was nothing to negotiate, Obama gave him everything he wanted.

Trump has forced NOKO back into negotiations with SOKO.

That is leadership. Obama did nothing but apathy and ignorance
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Old February 13th, 2018, 12:47 PM   #62
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Sure, & you're welcome. The US could have maintained nuclear supremacy @ the end of WWII, I suppose - if we'd been willing to declare war on the USSR & nuke them, if need be (& it very likely would have been necessary, in order to force them to a peace agreement.)

Then we could have set up an empire - doling out technical assistance, food & aid only to countries that played ball. The will wasn't there in May 1945, when it actually would have been doable (if extremely distasteful - & that was the problem).

We weren't willing then, when World conditions were far more favorable, & we had the arms & navy & military in place to carry out the orders.

In the near term - Was Pres. Clinton supposed to abandon the cease fire in Korea, & unilaterally nuke N. Korea into submission? Should we have invaded N. Korea & forced regime change?

What is it you're calling for Pres. Clinton to have done?
Thank you hoosier for your argument. I want to support that argument.

Back in the day there was strong support for Carter and Clinton's action.

Quote:
https://nypost.com/2016/01/06/you-ca...-koreas-nukes/
Clinton embraced this appeasement as achieving “an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula” — with compliance verified by international inspectors. Carter wound up winning the Nobel Peace Prize for his dubious efforts.
There is a big problem because there is a very legitimate reason for a nation insisting on having nuclear power. A nation can not have an industrial or high tech economy without electricity. There are better uses for oil than burning it up to produce electricity, and back in the day, there was concern about how much oil anyone would have.

Without considering the legitimate reasons for a nation having nuclear power, all the facts are not being considered. Also without considering what the Soviet Union had to do with the decisions Carter and Clinton made, all the facts are not on the table.

Quote:
Search Results
Nuclear power in North Korea - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...in_North_Korea
During the 1970s the North Korean research became more independent. In 1974 North Korea upgraded its Soviet-supplied reactor to 8 MW, and in 1979 it began to build a second, indigenous research reactor in Yongbyon Nuclear Scientific Research Center. Parallel to the construction of this reactor an ore processing ...
Some of the technology came from Pakistan.

Here is the really big problem now that North Korea has the technology..

Quote:
https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Nor...uclear-weapons
All stages of mining, refining, and processing uranium ore into weapons-grade material, is done in-country. N.Korea’s nuclear industry is fully self-reliant except for heavy water production.
A thing about democracy is it depends on having open talks. Refusing to talk to someone is a power play and maybe in today's world, that is not the best power play? Refusing to negotiate with someone and playing power games while claiming to be the world's leader in democracy is problematic. Maybe those of us who believe peace is achieved through negotiations are wrong, but what is more likely to lead to world peace?
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Old February 13th, 2018, 12:49 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Thank you hoosier for your argument. I want to support that argument.

Back in the day there was strong support for Carter and Clinton's action.



There is a big problem because there is a very legitimate reason for a nation insisting on having nuclear power. A nation can not have an industrial or high tech economy without electricity. There are better uses for oil than burning it up to produce electricity, and back in the day, there was concern about how much oil anyone would have.

Without considering the legitimate reasons for a nation having nuclear power, all the facts are not being considered. Also without considering what the Soviet Union had to do with the decisions Carter and Clinton made, all the facts are not on the table.



Some of the technology came from Pakistan.

Here is the really big problem now that North Korea has the technology..



A thing about democracy is it depends on having open talks. Refusing to talk to someone is a power play and maybe in today's world, that is not the best power play? Refusing to negotiate with someone and playing power games while claiming to be the world's leader in democracy is problematic. Maybe those of us who believe peace is achieved through negotiations are wrong, but what is more likely to lead to world peace?
for Electricity we could have sold them Coal, Hydroelectric or Natural Gas technology and materials for generation of electricity, not nuclear material.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 02:23 PM   #64
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for Electricity we could have sold them Coal, Hydroelectric or Natural Gas technology and materials for generation of electricity, not nuclear material.
N. Korea? They've been hot on the trail of nuclear technology - & then weapons derived from it - for a long time. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...ss_destruction

"History[edit]
"See also: Timeline of the North Korean nuclear program

"The nuclear program can be traced back to about 1962, when North Korea committed itself to what it called "all-fortressization", which was the beginning of the hyper-militarized North Korea of today.[9] In 1963, North Korea asked the Soviet Union for help in developing nuclear weapons, but was refused. The Soviet Union agreed to help North Korea develop a peaceful nuclear energy program, including the training of nuclear scientists. Later, China, after its nuclear tests, similarly rejected North Korean requests for help with developing nuclear weapons.[10]

"Soviet engineers took part in the construction of the Yongbyon Nuclear Scientific Research Center[11] and began construction of an IRT-2000 research reactor in 1963, which became operational in 1965 and was upgraded to 8 MW in 1974.[12] In 1979 North Korea indigenously began to build in Yongbyon a second research reactor, an ore processing plant and a fuel rod fabrication plant.[13]"

(My emphasis - More @ the URL)

Both USSR & China reasonably refused to help NK with nuclear weapons tech (why put a knife in an unreliable ally's hands?) Unfortunately, when the USSR went belly-up in 1991, there were a lot of nuclear weapons tech designers & scientists & engineers @ loose ends in Russia, & they were hungry. & Pakistan & Iran were also loose in the World nuclear research, & Dr. A. Q. Khan (Pakistan) was able to liberate centrifuge designs & associated equipment & techniques for Pakistan's nuclear technology & weapons.

NK has managed to achieve some nuclear weapons. By Western or CIS standards, they're likely crude. Even so, we - the US & the West & China & the USSR - forced NK to go down very difficult technical pathways to get to nuclear weapons. It seems that Jong-un is perfectly willing to starve the majority of his people, as long as he can achieve his nuclear technology & weapons efforts, & maintain a massive conventional military force & the usual state secret police & related security arrangements for himself & his kleptocracy. A pity, the people of NK probably deserve better.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 03:35 PM   #65
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What right does the U.S., the EU, UN or any other nation have from telling another nation what they can produce, buy and/or.sell.


What the real fear is and should be addresses is arming murder robots w/ nukes and once they develop autonomy how long it will take them before they realize that there are far to many of us and.rightfully choose the cleanse the earth of us...Furthermore the fact the Russia has a failsafe in place where if they loose in war an automated system will make the planet uninhabitable for generations.

#Legalizerecreationalplutonium
Thanks from Athena
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Old February 13th, 2018, 03:48 PM   #66
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What right does the U.S., the EU, UN or any other nation have from telling another nation what they can produce, buy and/or.sell.

...
If we were all angels here on Earth, we wouldn't need to be concerned. Insomuch as we live in the real World, NK's Jong-un plays a lot of brinksmanship with his country & people. The calculus of international diplomacy is already past dicey enough - we don't need someone playing pirate out @ the edges, especially someone who doesn't seem to appreciate how delicate & finely balanced is the array of forces that he could call down upon his head.

The odds are quite good - I think - that his own military or admin will stage a coup, & rid the World of one bad leader. We can hope that a decapitating strike internal to NK won't spill over into conventional or other combat with their neighbors.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 06:02 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
If we were all angels here on Earth, we wouldn't need to be concerned. Insomuch as we live in the real World, NK's Jong-un plays a lot of brinksmanship with his country & people. The calculus of international diplomacy is already past dicey enough - we don't need someone playing pirate out @ the edges, especially someone who doesn't seem to appreciate how delicate & finely balanced is the array of forces that he could call down upon his head.

The odds are quite good - I think - that his own military or admin will stage a coup, & rid the World of one bad leader. We can hope that a decapitating strike internal to NK won't spill over into conventional or other combat with their neighbors.
Yeah. But dont you find it a bit odd that every other nation that appeared to be a pain in our ass (or apparently harbouring someone who was allegedly a pain i ln our ass) has been gracefully given a healthy dose of American freedom yet north Korea literally has a nation of slaves living in some sort of crazy socialist cult. not only do we look the other way but they proudly parade some of their most skilled slaves at the international games as our media fawns over them.

It seems like such a ridiculous double standard that our ADD society cant seem to grasp.

Either they are very bad guys and should be stopped or not.

IMO if they are a recognized nation capable of competing in the Olympics and considered part of the UN then why shouldn't they be able to operate as they wish as long as they are not causing any harm.

Why does the US get to be international arms dealers but north korea cannot?
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Old February 13th, 2018, 06:57 PM   #68
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Yeah. But dont you find it a bit odd that every other nation that appeared to be a pain in our ass (or apparently harbouring someone who was allegedly a pain i ln our ass) has been gracefully given a healthy dose of American freedom yet north Korea literally has a nation of slaves living in some sort of crazy socialist cult. not only do we look the other way but they proudly parade some of their most skilled slaves at the international games as our media fawns over them.

It seems like such a ridiculous double standard that our ADD society cant seem to grasp.

Either they are very bad guys and should be stopped or not.

IMO if they are a recognized nation capable of competing in the Olympics and considered part of the UN then why shouldn't they be able to operate as they wish as long as they are not causing any harm.

Why does the US get to be international arms dealers but north korea cannot?
Sure, I'll play:

Is N. Korea a nation? It seems more like a criminal enterprise - smuggling cigarettes in diplomatic pouches for spending money, mining Bitcoin, running nuclear weapons/energy parts acquisitions out of their embassies, kidnapping Japanese, assaulting S. Korea, firing upon S. Korea, training a massive array of artillery upon S. Korea, landing commandoes on S. Korean shores, tunneling into the Korean DMZ, running a massive hacker enterprise directly from government, training & equipping a massive military establishment (while their people starve), doing their best to develop credible nuclear weapons & delivery capabilities.

international games are irrelevant - yet another venue to flog cars, movies, vacation trips.

The UN's performance on the Korean issues has been disappointing. The UN isn't the peace-keeping organization we'd hoped for - although they do some valuable work in health & other areas.

NK causes harm - note the false missile alert in Hawaii recently. Japan & S. Korea go into alert every time N. Korea fires off one of their noisemakers across the Sea of Japan or over Japanese territory - which they do often. If a military radar - SK, Japanese or even US - ever projects an impact on populated or military areas of SK, Japan or US bases or personnel - we'll have very tough decisions to make on the fly.

Yah, I agree - the US shouldn't be in the arms business to the extent that it is. However, that's fixable in the future. In the near term, we're the 1,000# gorilla - if NK wants to play hardball, they need to reconsider their options very carefully. They should consult their neighbors in what used to be Imperial Japan - if they can still find any survivors of that regime, of course.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 08:12 PM   #69
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Sure, I'll play:

Is N. Korea a nation? It seems more like a criminal enterprise - smuggling cigarettes in diplomatic pouches for spending money, mining Bitcoin, running nuclear weapons/energy parts acquisitions out of their embassies, kidnapping Japanese, assaulting S. Korea, firing upon S. Korea, training a massive array of artillery upon S. Korea, landing commandoes on S. Korean shores, tunneling into the Korean DMZ, running a massive hacker enterprise directly from government, training & equipping a massive military establishment (while their people starve), doing their best to develop credible nuclear weapons & delivery capabilities.

international games are irrelevant - yet another venue to flog cars, movies, vacation trips.

The UN's performance on the Korean issues has been disappointing. The UN isn't the peace-keeping organization we'd hoped for - although they do some valuable work in health & other areas.

NK causes harm - note the false missile alert in Hawaii recently. Japan & S. Korea go into alert every time N. Korea fires off one of their noisemakers across the Sea of Japan or over Japanese territory - which they do often. If a military radar - SK, Japanese or even US - ever projects an impact on populated or military areas of SK, Japan or US bases or personnel - we'll have very tough decisions to make on the fly.

Yah, I agree - the US shouldn't be in the arms business to the extent that it is. However, that's fixable in the future. In the near term, we're the 1,000# gorilla - if NK wants to play hardball, they need to reconsider their options very carefully. They should consult their neighbors in what used to be Imperial Japan - if they can still find any survivors of that regime, of course.


I agree 1000%

My point is the blatant hypocrisy not just from our government but our citizens and the international community.

We fall for all of this nation building in the ME as there is a real criminal organization that keeps its people as slaves just operating openly. Yet they get a seat at the big kids table and their queen gets to "steal the show" at the Olympics boasting about wishing for a unified korea??? Seriously?

But then you have to look at it from their perspective also. They have been operating w/ impunity for decades and their boogie man as been selling murder machines all along to the highest bidder so why shouldn't they be abel to?
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Old February 14th, 2018, 07:47 AM   #70
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I agree 1000%

My point is the blatant hypocrisy not just from our government but our citizens and the international community.

We fall for all of this nation building in the ME as there is a real criminal organization that keeps its people as slaves just operating openly. Yet they get a seat at the big kids table and their queen gets to "steal the show" at the Olympics boasting about wishing for a unified korea??? Seriously?

But then you have to look at it from their perspective also. They have been operating w/ impunity for decades and their boogie man as been selling murder machines all along to the highest bidder so why shouldn't they be abel to?
nation building? Didn't I just see an estimate of $89 billions to repair the war damage in Iraq? Seriously, the days of the US offloading pallet loads of cash in Iraq are long gone - that estimate isn't being touched by anyone, as far as I can tell. It's expensive to build up a nation brick by brick - if that was the point of the exercise, we should have left S. Hussein in charge there - he was doing a lot of the economic/educational/health stuff we wanted, as long as no one took up political stances against him.

The references are to Jong-un's sister - or whatever she is to him? I don't follow any of that, it's too fine-grained for me, & I figure the Olympics are Show Biz - nothing to take seriously - except perhaps as a coming-out party for the nation that hosts them. Yah, I'm sure Jong-un wants to unify Korea - @ bayonet-point, just like his father & grandfather (was it?)

Yes, we (the West) have let NK operate their little lemonade stand for a long time - too long, likely. It's a nice one, too. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it ...
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