Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Politicians

Politicians For topics and discussions about politicians, political leaders, or political figures


Thanks Tree44Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 15th, 2018, 07:05 AM   #81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by roastpork View Post
Athena, we could take out the North Korean gov. using conventional arms. we don't have to use Nukes. We still need to build up our military, in order to ensure success. We have let this evil empire exist for way too many years. Now we finally have a President who "gets it". Sure there will probably be many causalities, but that's the prive we must pay for "kicking the can down the road" for the last 50 or so years.
I think I understand your perceptions, but I don't think we agree on reality. Why do we even care about Korea? What do you think makes North Korea evil?

What makes you the judge of which nation should have international rights and which one's we should invade and destroy? How do you justify thinking like that? To get to the point- if you had complete control of Korea, how would you make it a better place?
Thanks from right to left
Athena is offline  
Old February 15th, 2018, 11:15 AM   #82
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 29,280
Yes, the US could take control of NK with conventional warfare, but how many nukes could they fire to wherever before control was established?
RNG is offline  
Old February 16th, 2018, 12:03 PM   #83
end capitalism now
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Trump was elected by people who wanted the game to end and someone who would break the machine. Being destructive is easy. We need to change the rules of the game, not vote for another Trump.
True, but the most despicable thing centrist professional and upper middle class liberals do is to disparage those poor....and falling rural and small town white voters that liberal Democrats offer NOTHING for! All they did was blame the "deplorables" for not voting for a bland corporate centrist candidate for president who had no overall vision of economic relief to address inequality...just the usual Democratic targeting of specific voting blocks...i.e. 'we'll throw this bone to the blacks, this one to latinos, have a few gays and trans people on stage with Hill, and women...we'll talk about how Republicans are taking away reproductive choice...yeah they're doing that, but was Hillary's dogs breakfast of a campaign enough to energize large masses of people to get out and vote? Not enough certainly!

It's been many decades since America had real working class-based movements. And, speaking of the Great Depression, a lot of festering animosity set in real fast right from the beginning, because much to Eleanor's objections, FDR made a deal with his Southern boll weavel democrats that they could apply their usual Jim Crow tactics to keep blacks from getting a share of the NRA and other actual infrastructure programs that kept the US economy going and a lot of people employed during a hard decade. But, since then, the "left" has become subdivided into specific niche interest groups that may work for their own group's specific interests,but no longer have any concept of broad based solidarity....that seems to have died out after that first great FBI chief- J. Edgar Hoover assassinated a whole lot of people and ended the age when activist leaders could see beyond their own four walls.

So, today, a real left has to do more than bitching about deplorables being part of the largest voter demographic - the 38% who didn't vote, or because Trump was at least making rhetorical arguments that he would bring back jobs and rebuild infrastructure....where was Hillary's infrastructure or jobs plans?

Quote:
Australia has a better system that makes if very possible for a third party to win.
Never mind Australia, what about Canada? We consistently have three to five political parties with seats in the federal parliament...though, only the top three have the size and organization to have a chance of forming a government. -But, because our parliamentary system is also First Past The Post, when a third party rises to 2nd (like our supposedly left NDP has done several times) they start triangulating their way to the center to try to knock off the centrist party. Fortunately over the years, most Canadians resist getting stuck with just two parties to choose from and will create new ones if there's a void left.

Quote:
If the person you vote for doesn't win, your vote goes to your second choice and then your third choice. That is you do not lose your vote if your first choice doesn't win. There are plenty of times when someone other than a democrat or republican could have won, but people were afraid that would mean getting the worst possible choice, so they gave their to their party even though the party's candidate wasn't their favorite person.
I like the concept of what I believe is called Ranked Choice Voting; I wish we had it, and Jill Stein mentioned it frequently when she had a chance to speak on the subject....but again, where was Bernie or other maverick members of either duopoly party on this?
Quote:
Next, it should be law that every single bill is about one thing and one thing only. Never should a bill be passed or not passed because a second issue was attached to the bill.
Oh, you got something against these omnibus bills,that politicians use to smuggle in everything they're trying to hide from the public! If you had a real media 4th estate left, maybe people would be after their local reps when the government sneaks through parts of their pro-corporate/anti-people agendas!

Quote:
And somehow we have to figure out a more efficient way of using the internet, so everything gets a popular vote. Then our representatives may or may not follow the popular vote. I would expect them to be in a position to know more then we do, so their judgment is needed, but if we don't like it and know the popular vote, we can better hold our representatives responsible. Democracy requires our involvement, and I don't think we are involved enough.
In Canada, our state of the art election system is clicking a box on the front of your tax form to keep registered if you're living in the same location. When you go to the local voting station...there's plenty close by...even in poorer neighborhoods, you get a paper ballot and use the pencil at the booth to enter your choice or write in another candidate....no voting machines necessary...the most corrupt piece of crap ever devised!
right to left is offline  
Old February 16th, 2018, 12:10 PM   #84
end capitalism now
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
I think I understand your perceptions, but I don't think we agree on reality. Why do we even care about Korea? What do you think makes North Korea evil?

What makes you the judge of which nation should have international rights and which one's we should invade and destroy? How do you justify thinking like that? To get to the point- if you had complete control of Korea, how would you make it a better place?
Roast Pig is typical of those who only see everything from their own side...what's good for them etc.. All I know is any North Korean leader would be a fool and nothing more if he decided to unilaterally disarm after what happened to Libya and Iraq, cause they didn't have a similar "deterrence" to stop the most dangerous nation on earth.
right to left is offline  
Old February 17th, 2018, 05:14 AM   #85
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
Then we should not have elected Obama who has allowed Iran and NOKO to become Nuclear.

Obama and Bush and Clinton let the Genies out of the bottle. Your not getting them back in
About your signature. Did having more than enough ruin the ambitions of Bush and Trump? The reasoning of your signature is just wrong. It is a protestant lie and I would be glad if you dropped it. Growing up with more than enough does not ruin ambition but feeds it.
Athena is offline  
Old February 17th, 2018, 05:24 AM   #86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Roast Pig is typical of those who only see everything from their own side...what's good for them etc.. All I know is any North Korean leader would be a fool and nothing more if he decided to unilaterally disarm after what happened to Libya and Iraq, cause they didn't have a similar "deterrence" to stop the most dangerous nation on earth.
I think we have agreement. Didn't the problem with North Korea and nukes follow in the invasion of Iraq? I would love replay history as we could do with old Nintendo games and see if the game is played differently do we get better results. But this game needs to be taken back to the beginning of Zionism and the Palestinian right to Palestine needs to be protected. That would change everything in the mid east. There would have been no OPEC embargo, therefore no recession when Carter was in office. Gosh, I wish we could replay history and see how the change would change history.
Thanks from RNG
Athena is offline  
Old February 17th, 2018, 05:56 AM   #87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
True, but the most despicable thing centrist professional and upper middle class liberals do is to disparage those poor....and falling rural and small town white voters that liberal Democrats offer NOTHING for! All they did was blame the "deplorables" for not voting for a bland corporate centrist candidate for president who had no overall vision of economic relief to address inequality...just the usual Democratic targeting of specific voting blocks...i.e. 'we'll throw this bone to the blacks, this one to latinos, have a few gays and trans people on stage with Hill, and women...we'll talk about how Republicans are taking away reproductive choice...yeah they're doing that, but was Hillary's dogs breakfast of a campaign enough to energize large masses of people to get out and vote? Not enough certainly!

It's been many decades since America had real working class-based movements. And, speaking of the Great Depression, a lot of festering animosity set in real fast right from the beginning, because much to Eleanor's objections, FDR made a deal with his Southern boll weavel democrats that they could apply their usual Jim Crow tactics to keep blacks from getting a share of the NRA and other actual infrastructure programs that kept the US economy going and a lot of people employed during a hard decade. But, since then, the "left" has become subdivided into specific niche interest groups that may work for their own group's specific interests,but no longer have any concept of broad based solidarity....that seems to have died out after that first great FBI chief- J. Edgar Hoover assassinated a whole lot of people and ended the age when activist leaders could see beyond their own four walls.

So, today, a real left has to do more than bitching about deplorables being part of the largest voter demographic - the 38% who didn't vote, or because Trump was at least making rhetorical arguments that he would bring back jobs and rebuild infrastructure....where was Hillary's infrastructure or jobs plans?


Never mind Australia, what about Canada? We consistently have three to five political parties with seats in the federal parliament...though, only the top three have the size and organization to have a chance of forming a government. -But, because our parliamentary system is also First Past The Post, when a third party rises to 2nd (like our supposedly left NDP has done several times) they start triangulating their way to the center to try to knock off the centrist party. Fortunately over the years, most Canadians resist getting stuck with just two parties to choose from and will create new ones if there's a void left.


I like the concept of what I believe is called Ranked Choice Voting; I wish we had it, and Jill Stein mentioned it frequently when she had a chance to speak on the subject....but again, where was Bernie or other maverick members of either duopoly party on this?
Oh, you got something against these omnibus bills,that politicians use to smuggle in everything they're trying to hide
from the public! If you had a real media 4th estate left, maybe people would be after their local reps when the government sneaks through parts of their pro-corporate/anti-people agendas!


In Canada, our state of the art election system is clicking a box on the front of your tax form to keep registered if you're living in the same location. When you go to the local voting station...there's plenty close by...even in poorer neighborhoods, you get a paper ballot and use the pencil at the booth to enter your choice or write in another candidate....no voting machines necessary...the most corrupt piece of crap ever devised!
That broad based solidarity was destroyed by the 1958 National Defense Education Act. Until this is fully understood the democracy in the US will continue its self destruction.

About J Edgar Hoover, this movie might be interesting...

Quote:
The secret life of J Edgar Hoover | Film | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...ver-secret-fbi
Dec 31, 2011 - For half a century, the FBI director waged war on homosexuals, black people and communists. Now, a controversial film by Clint Eastwood is set to reveal some of the explosive truth about him. Here, his biographer Anthony Summers tells all.
and we force people out of office because of allegations of abusing their wives or inappropriate touching. How do such things work? Why would J Edgar Hoover be able to do much much worse things and remain in power?

Is there any good reason for not having Ranked Choice Voting?

"Oh, you got something against these omnibus bills,that politicians use to smuggle in everything they're trying to hide
from the public!"

Hell yes, I object to that! I think if we actually had a democracy plenty would be changed. If I were not old and tired I would run for the presidency. One does not have to win to make a difference. Oh, and there is another thing I would change- the media needs to be reminded of its duty to our democracy and it must report on all candidates for office and if there is a debate all candidates should be allowed to participate equally. Shit we need a thread questioning what others think needs to be done to make our democracies more effective.

As for the abortion thing, these are serious block voters and they can not be ignored. These folks could get our country into serious trouble, because so many of them pay attention to that one issue and nothing else. Back to education- we need better education for science and democracy.
Thanks from right to left

Last edited by Athena; February 17th, 2018 at 05:58 AM.
Athena is offline  
Old February 18th, 2018, 08:48 AM   #88
end capitalism now
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
That broad based solidarity was destroyed by the 1958 National Defense Education Act. Until this is fully understood the democracy in the US will continue its self destruction.

About J Edgar Hoover, this movie might be interesting...



and we force people out of office because of allegations of abusing their wives or inappropriate touching. How do such things work? Why would J Edgar Hoover be able to do much much worse things and remain in power?

Is there any good reason for not having Ranked Choice Voting?

"Oh, you got something against these omnibus bills,that politicians use to smuggle in everything they're trying to hide
from the public!"

Hell yes, I object to that! I think if we actually had a democracy plenty would be changed. If I were not old and tired I would run for the presidency. One does not have to win to make a difference. Oh, and there is another thing I would change- the media needs to be reminded of its duty to our democracy and it must report on all candidates for office and if there is a debate all candidates should be allowed to participate equally. Shit we need a thread questioning what others think needs to be done to make our democracies more effective.

As for the abortion thing, these are serious block voters and they can not be ignored. These folks could get our country into serious trouble, because so many of them pay attention to that one issue and nothing else. Back to education- we need better education for science and democracy.
My overall contention is that both liberals and conservatives in America wanted a shift away from any class-based social movements. It's been a strategy of the right ever since conservativsm was founded over 200 years ago by Edmund Burke...as a means to keep large workingclass populations divided...after that French Revolution/Guillotines problem!

But, modern liberals pretend to stand 'with the people,' while also playing identity demographics rather than allowing universal programs and tactics like Sanders eased in to his campaign with universal health insurance and a $15.00 minimum wage. Just that limited hints of socialism sent Democrats into a panic, and if any liberal dems here actually remember why their goddawful candidate lost to the worst presidential candidate in history...it's not Russia, it's leaving Sanders voters in the wilderness and shifting further right...putting Tim Kaine in as Veep and just talking louder about the usual democratic identity causes. In the great wisdom of former Pennsylvania Governor - Ed Rendell: "for every Sanders voter we lose, we'll take two Republican voters who realize what an awful leader Donald Trump would be.".......glad that worked out so well for them!

If you've ever come across "intersectional politics" especially the term "erasing intersections," it's mostly claptrap to set up an identity hierarchy...if blacks are the most oppressed racial category, black women share greater oppression than black men and white women...add in gays and billionaire Oprah Winfrey is the most oppressed person in America! And these are the absurdities that crop up in political theories that don't add economic class to the intersection.

Intersectional liberals at Daily Kos and Democratic Underground would have realized it was a stupid, barbaric and damaging tactic to desparage West Virginia rural white voters for Trump's win and wishing they lose their healthcare benefits! But, they believe in the meritocracy as much as conservatives do! They just set up protected zones for specific groups they deem to be oppressed and discriminated against...and white men can't apply for that role and only face scorn and hostility for falling through the cracks even though they enjoy "White Privilege!"

People who learn about the impacts and importance of understanding class oppression need to throw the liberal oligarchs in the same dumpster as the more direct and obvious rightwing billionaires!
Thanks from Sabcat
right to left is offline  
Old February 20th, 2018, 07:39 PM   #89
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
My overall contention is that both liberals and conservatives in America wanted a shift away from any class-based social movements. It's been a strategy of the right ever since conservativsm was founded over 200 years ago by Edmund Burke...as a means to keep large workingclass populations divided...after that French Revolution/Guillotines problem!

But, modern liberals pretend to stand 'with the people,' while also playing identity demographics rather than allowing universal programs and tactics like Sanders eased in to his campaign with universal health insurance and a $15.00 minimum wage. Just that limited hints of socialism sent Democrats into a panic, and if any liberal dems here actually remember why their goddawful candidate lost to the worst presidential candidate in history...it's not Russia, it's leaving Sanders voters in the wilderness and shifting further right...putting Tim Kaine in as Veep and just talking louder about the usual democratic identity causes. In the great wisdom of former Pennsylvania Governor - Ed Rendell: "for every Sanders voter we lose, we'll take two Republican voters who realize what an awful leader Donald Trump would be.".......glad that worked out so well for them!

If you've ever come across "intersectional politics" especially the term "erasing intersections," it's mostly claptrap to set up an identity hierarchy...if blacks are the most oppressed racial category, black women share greater oppression than black men and white women...add in gays and billionaire Oprah Winfrey is the most oppressed person in America! And these are the absurdities that crop up in political theories that don't add economic class to the intersection.

Intersectional liberals at Daily Kos and Democratic Underground would have realized it was a stupid, barbaric and damaging tactic to desparage West Virginia rural white voters for Trump's win and wishing they lose their healthcare benefits! But, they believe in the meritocracy as much as conservatives do! They just set up protected zones for specific groups they deem to be oppressed and discriminated against...and white men can't apply for that role and only face scorn and hostility for falling through the cracks even though they enjoy "White Privilege!"

People who learn about the impacts and importance of understanding class oppression need to throw the liberal oligarchs in the same dumpster as the more direct and obvious rightwing billionaires!
You might as well be speaking Greek to me.
I don't know if the word cliche is the right one to use but I am going to use a definition to make a point.

Cliche means.. a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.

Now in that original thought is the ingredients of that thought but down the road, what the original thought was all about is lost. Now you are speaking a language only the initiated can speak. People who were not initiated along with you can not know what you are talking about. I think what is happening is a huge part of the problem! How many people want to say, I don't have a clue what you are talking? That is not going to happen. Instead, they will ignore the post or make an insulting comment. But I will say, I don't use those words and I don't know what they mean.

The only thing I got out of your post is if Blacks and Whites keep fighting each other they keep each other powerless. Only if we work together will things get better.

I wonder if we ever had adequate reasoning? We had a relatively small population and plenty of land and resources and we could be careless without noticing any serious problems. That is no longer true. With the size of our population and therefore the shrinking of available resources like electricity, land, water, etc. we are living with problems that can not be ignored, and we are not identifying the problems and therefore we can not discuss the solutions.

I think we need to focus on math so we can think like mathematicians when speaking of problems and solutions. A mathematician does not make issues of racism, liberals, meritocracy. Exactly what are we talking about? How big is it? How do we quantify it? We have a population of ____. We have this much space for housing them _____. The cost of this space is _____. A person needs this much income _____ to live here. Does that make sense to you?

This thread is supposed to be about Trump wanting to add to our nuclear arms. Has increasing our nuclear capability increased our decreased our safety? Do we have reason to believe increasing our nuclear capability will increase our safety? What is the logic? Every discussion moves on to something else and speaking of the ramifications of the 1958 National Defense Education Act, goes with everything we talk about. That change in education resulted from WWII military technology, and specifically air warfare and the atomic bomb. Like a cliche, we are far from the original thought of the nuclear arms race, and we haven't answered the necessary question. Is nuclear build up a good or bad thing? How would a mathematician discuss our destructive power and if increasing it increases our safety?

What are we defending when we are not defending our democracy through education, but we have used education to become what we defended our democracy against in the second world war?

Last edited by Athena; February 20th, 2018 at 07:47 PM.
Athena is offline  
Old February 22nd, 2018, 10:50 AM   #90
end capitalism now
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
You might as well be speaking Greek to me.
I don't know if the word cliche is the right one to use but I am going to use a definition to make a point.

Cliche means.. a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.
I know fucking well what cliche means, and I don't give a shit what you think of my ideas! They are my own and not derivative of conventional wisdom repeated endlessly out there..like yours!
Quote:
Now in that original thought is the ingredients of that thought but down the road, what the original thought was all about is lost. Now you are speaking a language only the initiated can speak. People who were not initiated along with you can not know what you are talking about. I think what is happening is a huge part of the problem! How many people want to say, I don't have a clue what you are talking? That is not going to happen. Instead, they will ignore the post or make an insulting comment. But I will say, I don't use those words and I don't know what they mean.
If you got no fucking clue, don't bother!

Quote:
The only thing I got out of your post is if Blacks and Whites keep fighting each other they keep each other powerless. Only if we work together will things get better.
If you can't get the point that liberalism is as divisive a philosophy as conservatism then yes, you missed the point! The point is liberals don't want any coming together of working class people any more than conservatives do! The only difference is conservatives heap scorn on minorities and outsiders who don't make up their esteemed white middle class, while liberal strategy is just going about making appeals to the marginalized by tossing a few crumbs to each group based on their identity: race, origins, culture, gender, sexual orientation etc... not to economic position in the wealth hierarchy. so, in effect, the liberal Democratic strategy in America is just to go out and gather up all of the groups tossed aside by Republicans and try to make them a working majority. We hear much these days about how we are entering a realm of permanent Democratic power and leadership because America is becoming a majority-minority country. The obvious flaw is that Dems just assume every minority and marginalized group will swing in their favor and they don't have to do anything of substance to earn those votes! Just remind everyone on a daily basis of all the bad things Trump has said about them and they have no choice other than vote Democrat!

Quote:
This thread is supposed to be about Trump wanting to add to our nuclear arms. Has increasing our nuclear capability increased our decreased our safety?
The answer should be obvious!
Quote:
That change in education resulted from WWII military technology, and specifically air warfare and the atomic bomb. Like a cliche, we are far from the original thought of the nuclear arms race, and we haven't answered the necessary question.
What was that about cliches again?

Quote:
How would a mathematician discuss our destructive power and if increasing it increases our safety?
One thing I do know about mathematics is it provides no basis for making moral or ethical decisions, which is what this is!

Last edited by right to left; February 22nd, 2018 at 10:55 AM.
right to left is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Politicians

Tags
nuclear, trump, war



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Iran nuclear: Trump extends Obama's 'worst deal ever' RNG Current Events 4 May 18th, 2017 04:53 PM
In Call With Putin, Trump Denounced Obama-Era Nuclear Arms Treaty RNG Americas 0 February 9th, 2017 02:39 PM
n nuclear threat REDUCED to safest level following Donald Trump vic Sabcat Current Events 4 November 17th, 2016 08:07 PM
Defcon nuclear threat REDUCED to safest level following Donald Trump victory excalibur Current Events 1 November 15th, 2016 12:16 PM
Putin ally tells Americans: Vote Trump or face nuclear war imaginethat Current Events 78 October 14th, 2016 10:55 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.