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Old May 14th, 2017, 04:53 AM   #51
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These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsr...reaten-america

Yes, decent type capitalism (to use a fantastic term) is more likely almost anywhere else. What gives you the odd notion that the working class controls Venezuela? Drink or drugs?
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Old May 14th, 2017, 05:39 AM   #52
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I see that none of the usual suspects who patriot the "fair wage" meme have taken the time to educate the lowly RWNJs on this enlightened economic theory.


That is unfortunate.
OK, see if you can understand the basic principal.

A fair wage, coupled with fair tax rates would produce an after tax return on investment equal to the rate of growth of the economy as a whole.
Or in the case of an economy with a skewed distribution of wealth, an after tax rate of return on capital less than the rate of growth of the economy.


Or approaching it from another angle (in this case Pope Leo XIII)
A fair wage is one in which a worker can provide food, clothing, shelter, medical care, retirement funds vacation and leisure time to themselves and to their family. It's a moral obligation of Christian business owners to provide fair wages to their employees.

Last edited by goober; May 14th, 2017 at 05:48 AM.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 05:47 AM   #53
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But that was a choice to model a business in that way. Do you favor mandating all business be that way? Would you really suggest stealing through legislated fiat to do that? Do you believe that a person who wants to work harder and longer than should receive the same as the other person? Why did you fail to address "to each according their need" comment?

Of course I don't favor mandating ALL businesses adopt that model. A person who wants to work harder/longer makes that choice but unless the business owner has stipulated "rewards" for that kind of service it's a personal choice. I think it's a good choice that should be rewarded but that's not always the case.

There are lots of great employers who DO reward excellence. I really don't know what you want me to say about 'each according to their need'. Why don't you address it and then we'll talk.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:29 AM   #54
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An employer who rewards excellence leaves himself wide open to discrimination lawsuits because that makes it easy for minorities to prove unequal pay. Performance is difficult to prove in court.
It is the tax system which punishes hard work.
A man who works 40 hours a week for ten years pays much less tax than a man who works 80 hours a week for 5 years doing the exact same work. I am acutely aware of this because I worked an average of 70 hours a week for 15 years just prior to retiring at age 44. I was penalized because I compressed my working hours into a short length of time.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Baby Ray View Post
These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsr...reaten-america

I believe this photo is from America in a city where a hurricane/flooding had been heavily predicted.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:00 AM   #56
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OK, see if you can understand the basic principal.

A fair wage, coupled with fair tax rates would produce an after tax return on investment equal to the rate of growth of the economy as a whole.
Or in the case of an economy with a skewed distribution of wealth, an after tax rate of return on capital less than the rate of growth of the economy.


Or approaching it from another angle (in this case Pope Leo XIII)
A fair wage is one in which a worker can provide food, clothing, shelter, medical care, retirement funds vacation and leisure time to themselves and to their family. It's a moral obligation of Christian business owners to provide fair wages to their employees.

Well, would you like to choose one so we can continue this conversation?
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:13 AM   #57
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Well, would you like to choose one so we can continue this conversation?
You don't have to choose, one is the economic argument, the other is the moral argument, they both work.

Which path would you choose the conversation to follow?
I can go down either.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:20 AM   #58
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You don't have to choose, one is the economic argument, the other is the moral argument, they both work.

Which path would you choose the conversation to follow?
I can go down either.

Well you see your "economic" one has a lot of variables

Quote:

A fair wage, coupled with fair tax rates would produce an after tax return on investment equal to the rate of growth of the economy as a whole.
Or in the case of an economy with a skewed distribution of wealth, an after tax rate of return on capital less than the rate of growth of the economy.

How would something that complex be decided?

Who would make that/those decisions?
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:21 AM   #59
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You don't have to choose, one is the economic argument, the other is the moral argument, they both work.

Which path would you choose the conversation to follow?
I can go down either.
I would like to see both arguments under separation. I find that people tend to switch from moral to economic to strategic as suits their agenda. This is unavoidable since they are somewhat intertwined.
But let's be sincere in understanding the subjectivity of morals. If I were broke and lazy or in a wheelchair I would likely think redistribution of wealth taken from the productive class is moral.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:25 AM   #60
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I would like to see both arguments under separation. I find that people tend to switch from moral to economic to strategic as suits their agenda. This is unavoidable since they are somewhat intertwined.
But let's be sincere in understanding the subjectivity of morals. If I were broke and lazy or in a wheelchair I would likely think redistribution of wealth taken from the productive class is moral.
And if you were the owner of a business, what would be your moral position, for keeping your workers in poverty?
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