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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:31 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by goober View Post
And if you were the owner of a business, what would be your moral position, for keeping your workers in poverty?
There is no prerequisite for being a "moral" business owner.

Employment is a voluntary exchange between two or more parties. If one lives up to or goes beyond the expectations they are rewarded if not they are replaced.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #62
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Well you see your "economic" one has a lot of variables




How would something that complex be decided?

Who would make that/those decisions?
It's called a political-economic system for a reason.
We have a political system to make rules, the economic side of the system should be able to function under those rules, and the political side should tweak things that get out of line.
Use market methods in those areas where the market is best, use government to do those things that government does best.
Use real world data to determine which is which.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:37 AM   #63
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I would like to see both arguments under separation. I find that people tend to switch from moral to economic to strategic as suits their agenda. This is unavoidable since they are somewhat intertwined.
But let's be sincere in understanding the subjectivity of morals. If I were broke and lazy or in a wheelchair I would likely think redistribution of wealth taken from the productive class is moral.
But who decided what is moral and do you feel that you can require someone to be moral?

Morality is personal and subjective. I personally feel that theft is wrong and I believe forced taxation is theft therefore immoral.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by goober View Post
It's called a political-economic system for a reason.
We have a political system to make rules, the economic side of the system should be able to function under those rules, and the political side should tweak things that get out of line.
Use market methods in those areas where the market is best, use government to do those things that government does best.
Use real world data to determine which is which.
You cannot really answer the questions you are just throwing your hands up in the air and sayin "government"

I see.

Who will decide?

Goober. Government

How will they figure it out?

Goober. Government

Where will they get the funds?

Goober. Government.

Jesus.
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Last edited by Sabcat; May 14th, 2017 at 06:43 AM.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:43 AM   #65
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There is no prerequisite for being a "moral" business owner.

Employment is a voluntary exchange between two or more parties. If one lives up to or goes beyond the expectations they are rewarded if not they are replaced.

So you don't see morality as having any value in the real world?
Morality works both ways.
Because morality imposes obligations on labor and capital.
Labor has a moral obligation to capital to provide an honest days work, remove the moral obligations from Capital, and you also remove them from labor, and that doesn't work very well, does it?
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
You cannot really answer the questions you are just throwing your hands up in the air and sayin "government"

I see.

Who will decide?

Goober. Government

How will they figure it out?

Goober. Government

Where will they get the funds?

Goober. Government.

Jesus.
That's the way it works now, do I really have to explain that part to you?

Do you have a better way?
Tell us?
And tell us where this better way is used, and how it delivers better results.
Give us the data...
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:53 AM   #67
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That's the way it works now, do I really have to explain that part to you?

Do you have a better way?
Tell us?
And tell us where this better way is used, and how it delivers better results.
Give us the data...

This is why I asked the question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
I see this phrase tossed around often by our leftist friends but what does it really mean?

What IS "fair pay"?

If you cannot explain it, how do you expect people to take you seriously. "Fair pay" is your crazy progressive term.

Shrugging your shoulders and saying "government" is not an answer. It is a cop out, a non response.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:54 AM   #68
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And if you were the owner of a business, what would be your moral position, for keeping your workers in poverty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
There is no prerequisite for being a "moral" business owner.

Employment is a voluntary exchange between two or more parties. If one lives up to or goes beyond the expectations they are rewarded if not they are replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
So you don't see morality as having any value in the real world?
Morality works both ways.
Because morality imposes obligations on labor and capital.
Labor has a moral obligation to capital to provide an honest days work, remove the moral obligations from Capital, and you also remove them from labor, and that doesn't work very well, does it?

Nice try.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:58 AM   #69
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There is no moral argument regarding wages. Wages pay rent, buy food, etc. If wages are too low, then the above are a struggle according to liberals. This is a one-sided and failed argument. Prices are the problem. The state needs to take over all pricing. Force landlords to charge only certain percentage of the renter's wages for rent and no turning down renters. Same with car dealers. If John Doe makes $12.50 per hour and wants a Mercedes, then a dealer can only charge do much as a percentage of John's wages. Same with grocery stores, etc.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:58 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
This is why I asked the question



If you cannot explain it, how do you expect people to take you seriously. "Fair pay" is your crazy progressive term.

Shrugging your shoulders and saying "government" is not an answer. It is a cop out, a non response.
That's why I told you that fair pay is what allows a worker to lead a good life, do you get that part?
What is it that eludes you?

Can you give us an idea of what you believe?
Besides the part about you wanting everything for free...
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