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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:07 AM   #71
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That's why I told you that fair pay is what allows a worker to lead a good life, do you get that part?
What is it that eludes you?

Can you give us an idea of what you believe?
Besides the part about you wanting everything for free...
"The good life" is subjective. It is not an answer. I started the thread to find out what is ment by "fair pay" so far I have not gotten an answer. That is kinda what I expected though.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:41 AM   #72
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"The good life" is subjective. It is not an answer. I started the thread to find out what is ment by "fair pay" so far I have not gotten an answer. That is kinda what I expected though.
You got what you wanted, you got to rant, and you still want everything free, for yourself.
For the record, we never expected anymore than that...
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Old May 14th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #73
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And if you were the owner of a business, what would be your moral position, for keeping your workers in poverty?
First of all, if I were a business owner, I would not have any employees because they are the biggest hassle and liability to deal with under current laws.
But if I did have employees, I would pay them whatever it takes to keep them around if they performed adequately enough to permit me to continue "in the black". If they drove me into the red I would fire them. All this would be done voluntarily both on their part and mine, therefore I would not be forcing them to live in poverty. If their skills and performance were such that they could get paid more somewhere else, then they would be free to go to work someplace else. My loss their gain. That's how free labor markets work.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 08:28 AM   #74
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First of all, if I were a business owner, I would not have any employees because they are the biggest hassle and liability to deal with under current laws.
But if I did have employees, I would pay them whatever it takes to keep them around if they performed adequately enough to permit me to continue "in the black". If they drove me into the red I would fire them. All this would be done voluntarily both on their part and mine, therefore I would not be forcing them to live in poverty. If their skills and performance were such that they could get paid more somewhere else, then they would be free to go to work someplace else. My loss their gain. That's how free labor markets work.


I am interested in your statement.."if they drove me into the red"....

I'm guessing you don't mean that in it's entirety. I'm sure you realize that the success or failure of a business stops with the owner---the person at the top.
And there's much more to it. The owner hires, trains, invests in his/her employees. If the employee is 'failing', it's the owner who needs to assess his/her OWN policies and/or training. Is the employee inept? Does the employee need more guidance? Does the employee "FIT" the job description and the job? Would he/she be better suited in another position or is it JUST NOT working?

I've had to fire several employees in my life and it's very hard--on me and them...but ultimately it's MY own failing for 1) choosing the person in the first place 2) allowing the employee to continue their mistakes 3) not working with the employee more closely and giving them missed opportunities.
In my view, it's like parenting. Bottom line is I want to know that I did everything possible to achieve success....because when my employees WIN--I WIN.
Thoughts?
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Old May 14th, 2017, 09:01 AM   #75
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I am interested in your statement.."if they drove me into the red"....

I'm guessing you don't mean that in it's entirety. I'm sure you realize that the success or failure of a business stops with the owner---the person at the top.
And there's much more to it. The owner hires, trains, invests in his/her employees. If the employee is 'failing', it's the owner who needs to assess his/her OWN policies and/or training. Is the employee inept? Does the employee need more guidance? Does the employee "FIT" the job description and the job? Would he/she be better suited in another position or is it JUST NOT working?

I've had to fire several employees in my life and it's very hard--on me and them...but ultimately it's MY own failing for 1) choosing the person in the first place 2) allowing the employee to continue their mistakes 3) not working with the employee more closely and giving them missed opportunities.
In my view, it's like parenting. Bottom line is I want to know that I did everything possible to achieve success....because when my employees WIN--I WIN.
Thoughts?
Certainly all things are relative and also a matter of perception. You have to understand humans and their capability. The most capable generally are more likely to become business owners in a free market. Although he is not Superman, he will likely be working 16 hours a day to keep his dream alive.
People who grew up without any work ethic, using drugs and alcohol in excess, and raised by irresponsible parents, television and educated in an environment where everything is someone else's fault are less likely to become business owners and therefore will either be on handouts or get a job somewhere. Some of them have enough in them to learn better habits and become productive employees, but a large percentage of them will simply drag the company down.
Employers have too much of a workload to become father and mother to their employees. Smart employees with initiative will basically train themselves. Others are untrainable no matter how much time of money you waste on them.

And sure, some employers are deadbeats themselves, lying and taking advantage of whomever they can. This is why REPUTATION is so important for both employee and employers. Unfortunately in large cities reputations, good or bad tend to be obscured. I have wasted a few years working for such employers but coworkers and customers saw my work habits and this enabled me to move to jobs that had better opportunities.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 12:11 PM   #76
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First of all, if I were a business owner, I would not have any employees because they are the biggest hassle and liability to deal with under current laws.
But if I did have employees, I would pay them whatever it takes to keep them around if they performed adequately enough to permit me to continue "in the black". If they drove me into the red I would fire them. All this would be done voluntarily both on their part and mine, therefore I would not be forcing them to live in poverty. If their skills and performance were such that they could get paid more somewhere else, then they would be free to go to work someplace else. My loss their gain. That's how free labor markets work.
So, you have no obligation to them, and they have no obligation to you, as soon as you leave, it's break time, if you catch 'em you can fire them.
If the cash box is left unlocked, IT'S BONUS TIME BABY!

That's the level you want to operate on, you'll never own a business.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 12:59 PM   #77
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"The good life" is subjective. It is not an answer. I started the thread to find out what is ment by "fair pay" so far I have not gotten an answer. That is kinda what I expected though.
Before defining "fair pay" the concept of "shit job" must be addressed. In terms of products and services delivered, the only shit jobs are jobs that are unnecessary to the delivery. As I mentioned earlier, dishwasher is a shit job only if you don't mind dining out on dirty plates. Housekeeper is a shit job only if you don't mind dirty hotel rooms and unchanged linens.

No job that is necessary to the delivery of a product or service is a shit job.

So, every job should pay at a minimum a fair wage, fair pay. So what's fair pay?

Fair pay is a wage that allows an individual or a couple or family to meet their needs without government assistance in the form of Medicaid, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, food stamps, and the earned-income tax credit, for starts.

Fair pay is a wage that pays enough to keep the house warm, and the electricity and gas turned on ... at a minimum, but our economy currently provides millions of jobs that fail to pay enough for people to meet their' basic needs.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 01:20 PM   #78
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So, you have no obligation to them, and they have no obligation to you, as soon as you leave, it's break time, if you catch 'em you can fire them.
If the cash box is left unlocked, IT'S BONUS TIME BABY!

That's the level you want to operate on, you'll never own a business.
That seems to be the level you think on.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #79
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That seems to be the level you think on.

I just said that Capital and Labor have moral obligations and rights.
The owner has a right to own the business, they have a right to expect a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, they have obligations to provide a healthy environment for their employees, to provide wages sufficient for their employees and their families to live above the poverty line.

Otherwise, screw'em, shut down their business, leave the business for the people who treat their employees well.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 04:50 PM   #80
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I just said that Capital and Labor have moral obligations and rights.
The owner has a right to own the business, they have a right to expect a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, they have obligations to provide a healthy environment for their employees, to provide wages sufficient for their employees and their families to live above the poverty line.

Otherwise, screw'em, shut down their business, leave the business for the people who treat their employees well.
Some jobs are more dangerous than others. I worked on offshore gas platforms in the Gulf. Employees knew it was dangerous and a few people died in helicopter crashes. The company paid extra wages for us to work there because if they didn't we would have left and gas production would have ceased. They offered huge settlements to the widows of the dead employees.
All things are relative. You can't expect ironworkers on skyscraper jobs to have it quite as safe a work environment as a parking lot attendant. Be reasonable.
There is always going to be a "poverty line". There are always going to be people at the bottom. They will be working the jobs which require the least intellect /skill and personal sacrifice or not working any job at all. Should they be compensated the same as those who have higher intellect/skill and make more personal sacrifices?

Should a parking lot attendant be compensated the same as a brain surgeon?
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