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Old May 14th, 2017, 05:56 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post
Certainly all things are relative and also a matter of perception. You have to understand humans and their capability. The most capable generally are more likely to become business owners in a free market. Although he is not Superman, he will likely be working 16 hours a day to keep his dream alive.
People who grew up without any work ethic, using drugs and alcohol in excess, and raised by irresponsible parents, television and educated in an environment where everything is someone else's fault are less likely to become business owners and therefore will either be on handouts or get a job somewhere. Some of them have enough in them to learn better habits and become productive employees, but a large percentage of them will simply drag the company down.
Employers have too much of a workload to become father and mother to their employees. Smart employees with initiative will basically train themselves. Others are untrainable no matter how much time of money you waste on them.

And sure, some employers are deadbeats themselves, lying and taking advantage of whomever they can. This is why REPUTATION is so important for both employee and employers. Unfortunately in large cities reputations, good or bad tend to be obscured. I have wasted a few years working for such employers but coworkers and customers saw my work habits and this enabled me to move to jobs that had better opportunities.

What world do you live in? Employees who train themselves?? i can't think of very many businesses that don't require extensive training....IF the employee is going to succeed.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:07 PM   #82
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What world do you live in? Employees who train themselves?? i can't think of very many businesses that don't require extensive training....IF the employee is going to succeed.
Selling labor is about the same as selling potatoes or tires. You offer the buyer what he wants and he either buys it or looks for a better deal elsewhere. The buyer is not responsible to water my potatoes before he buys them. It is MY RESPONSIBILITY.
In my career, employers never trained me. I went to a technical school for nine months then learned on the job. I bought books or checked them out at the library. If there was an employer foolish enough to train employees at their own expense I would have worked there for a while and moved on to a better paying job when I got trained. A company who spends money on training has less money to pay employees. It makes more sense for them to pay extra for those who had the initiative to train themselves.

Nowadays people have it much easier, they can learn how to do their job better by getting on the internet a few minutes every night.

INITIATIVE gets rewards.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #83
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You got what you wanted, you got to rant, and you still want everything free, for yourself.
For the record, we never expected anymore than that...
I don't know why you even peeked your head into this thread when all you are going to do is cover it as soon as you are asked a direct question but since that's where we are at I will bite on your feeble attempt on a thread drift. You do like to stick this one in on your way into your ostrich hole what is it that I want for free...ready go. Unsubstantiated thread drift goober style
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:55 PM   #84
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Before defining "fair pay" the concept of "shit job" must be addressed. In terms of products and services delivered, the only shit jobs are jobs that are unnecessary to the delivery. As I mentioned earlier, dishwasher is a shit job only if you don't mind dining out on dirty plates. Housekeeper is a shit job only if you don't mind dirty hotel rooms and unchanged linens.

No job that is necessary to the delivery of a product or service is a shit job.

So, every job should pay at a minimum a fair wage, fair pay. So what's fair pay?

Fair pay is a wage that allows an individual or a couple or family to meet their needs without government assistance in the form of Medicaid, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, food stamps, and the earned-income tax credit, for starts.

Fair pay is a wage that pays enough to keep the house warm, and the electricity and gas turned on ... at a minimum, but our economy currently provides millions of jobs that fail to pay enough for people to meet their' basic needs.


First off shit job is not my term entry level is a term that is used in the circles I am familiar w/. There are many way that this has been addressed in the people I am associated w/ though I do not see how it is necessary to define that to determine "fair pay"

I can accept your definition of "fair pay" or more likely a "living wage". A few things though who gets to decide the stipulations? From a global perspective our homeless are in the 1% at least the top 10. Furthermore wouldn't "fair pay" be regional even in the US. We do OK in Minneapolis and would be doing even better over by our cabin but everything remaining the same would be fucked in Manhattan or SF.

Furthermore why should my employer be required to concern themselves w/ if I am eating lard sandwiches or just bought a new merc? My personal life is none of my employers business all that they should concern themselves w/ is when I come and go and if I am preforming up to expectations. On rare occasions an employer may see some potential of growth in an employee and they may invest extra time and resorces into the employee w/ the intention of grooming them for advancement. This can be benifitial for both parties if successful, the employee produces more and to a higher standard in turn the employer rewards them w/ higher pay. This is a voluntary exchange and either of their outside lives has no baring on the arrangement.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 07:33 PM   #85
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Of course I don't favor mandating ALL businesses adopt that model. A person who wants to work harder/longer makes that choice but unless the business owner has stipulated "rewards" for that kind of service it's a personal choice. I think it's a good choice that should be rewarded but that's not always the case.

There are lots of great employers who DO reward excellence. I really don't know what you want me to say about 'each according to their need'. Why don't you address it and then we'll talk.
Well, it is somewhat self explanatory. To each according to his/her need. What that means is, no matter who works the hardest, or the jobs that require the most skill or education. The reward will based on the need of the individual. Example would be a Doctor who is single, and a janitor who has 4 kids. If you use each according to their need as the basis of a wage, the janitor makes more than the Dr. Yet, that is, as Iolo person indicated the end game. Marx said the same thing as well. So, if you know this, I do not understand how anyone could rationally say that a little bit of Socialism is a good thing. The little bit parts, such as the government housing in Singapore, is going to reach a boiling point sooner than later. You do not see it on the news, because of the government control of the media. Singapore provides housing by the rule of "each according their need". Here is a little snipet from some media out of Sing. Now, keep in mind, the Singaporean controls the media and what is written.

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The Housing Board in 1989 also introduced the Ethnic Integration Policy that mandates a quota for minorities in HDB estates, so as to prevent racial enclaves from forming.
Quote:
In 2012, former National Trades Union Congress employee Amy Cheong was sacked for her online diatribe against Malay weddings in void decks, and she fled to Australia after the resulting furore.

Some criticised the authorities' reaction in these cases as heavy-handed, but officials have always been mindful that isolated incidents can easily get out of control.

And two years ago, they did: the death of a foreign worker run over by a bus in Little India sparked a riot by about 300 people. In the process, 54 officers and eight civilians were hurt, 23 emergency vehicles were damaged, including five that were torched. It was contained within a few hours, and while the riot was not linked to race, some of the ensuing online rhetoric vilified the South Asian rioters on account of their race.
The race issue: How far has Singapore come?, Politics News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

That may not sound to bad, but that is only because the government is downplaying it. Its much worse and the majority Chinese population is getting more and more restless. The Singaporean young are moving out as soon they get their education. They don't look back because of "each according to their need" policy. Dont worry though, if you have enough money you "buy" your way out of it and you lease a nice condo or what not. But if your the Singaporean middle class, well your stuck in a Socialistic housing market, without the ability to move or choose where you live due to "each according their need", in the form of quotas to placate the Islamic minorities. Malay and Indonesian are Muslim. The Indian population is the exception but also the smallest of the minorities.
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Old May 15th, 2017, 08:59 PM   #86
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Selling labor is about the same as selling potatoes or tires. You offer the buyer what he wants and he either buys it or looks for a better deal elsewhere. The buyer is not responsible to water my potatoes before he buys them. It is MY RESPONSIBILITY.
In my career, employers never trained me. I went to a technical school for nine months then learned on the job. I bought books or checked them out at the library. If there was an employer foolish enough to train employees at their own expense I would have worked there for a while and moved on to a better paying job when I got trained. A company who spends money on training has less money to pay employees. It makes more sense for them to pay extra for those who had the initiative to train themselves.

Nowadays people have it much easier, they can learn how to do their job better by getting on the internet a few minutes every night.

INITIATIVE gets rewards.


It's conversations or discussions like ours that surprise me with a reality check. You and I must live in very different worlds. About the only thing we have in common is that education comes first.
Here's my world. 1) College--degree in education 2) Graduate school--more education 3) First job--teaching 4) Training every year I taught in every possible thing you can think of from technology to standardized testing to curriculum to special needs students....provided by the school district.
Mr. Clara's world 1)College--degree in Chemistry/Business 2) First job for a paint manufacturing company 3) Sent to training all over the country so he could manage the business/sales/accounting, etc. Stayed with them for 30 yrs. Moved up the ladder.
Clara's oldest son 1) College--degree in accounting/business 2)First job Inventory Control specialist--training in products, budgets, inventory, warehouse facilities. 3) Second job--safety and fire inspector--training in state certifications, construction codes, laws, testifying, etc.
Clara's youngest son 1) College--degree in business/Spanish 2) First job--Medical interpreter--trained by hospitals and clinics to assist patients where English is a second language 3) Second job--Peace Corp--trained to build water systems/aquaducts 4) Third job--started his own business in construction, flipping houses and home inspections (He used the training from previous jobs and paid for additional training himself.)

Sorry--too much information, but I just wanted you to understand that MANY MANY businesses TRAIN their own employees so they have the BEST employees or teachers or accountants or managers. I think it pays off. Sorry you didn't have that kind of experience. Hope you've been successful.
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Old May 15th, 2017, 09:07 PM   #87
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The concept of freedom and property rights and the sacrifices to acquire them befuddles some people.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 04:01 AM   #88
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The concept of freedom and property rights and the sacrifices to acquire them befuddles some people.
Those concepts do befuddle those on the right, who weave a bizarre cult dogma from them, which has little to no value in the real world.
In the real world, we are human, and as humans the most important thing is our relationships with other people.

Money, freedom, property rights are parts of a game to decide how to distribute wealth. The game is not as important as the being human part.
Something that gets lost on the right.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 04:16 AM   #89
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The nature of property is to remove freedom from all who co-exist with it, always and everywhere. Those who believe in it spend their lives like a combination of bandits and prison guards, making life loathsome for others and hardly daring themselves to sleep or shit except in their trousers.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 04:21 AM   #90
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The job belongs to the employer. Many people seem to forget that. When the employer makes an applicant a job offer they are free to negotiate or turn it down. Some people may believe that their labor is worth $20 per hour but if all an employer is willing to pay them is $10 per hour, then that is what their labor is worth.

The idea is that you start at a starting wage, then earn raises and promotions. The left seems to want to just start everyone at a living wage that takes care of all their needs. That isn't our system.
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