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Old April 25th, 2018, 07:56 PM   #41
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If it isn't the metric, it should be.

We should always attempt to do everything we can for someone unless the patient themselves, in a sound state of mind, indicates that they would prefer to pass on.
Medicare for all?
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Old April 25th, 2018, 08:09 PM   #42
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All points considered, humankind has been avoiding some questions regarding cases like Alfie's.

Western medicine has developed procedures and pharmaceuticals for a variety of usually serious ailments that are ridiculously expensive. Iow, they can have no wide application because the system, whether socialized or privatized, could not fund a large number of people requiring these procedures or pharmaceuticals.

Take a heart transplant. We're talking a million bucks. Intestine transplant - $1.2 million. Then, greed raises its ugly head. Remember when the manufacturers of Daraprim, used by AIDS and transplant patients, raised the price from $13.50 per pill to $750.

Back to Alfie:
Barrister Rebecca Foulkes, who is representing Alfie's parents, told the judge: "Their priority is to make sure that everything that can be done for Alfie is done."
There it is: "...to make sure everything that can be done for Alfie is done."

Is this the metric?


All of that is well and good.

What i want to know if if you find it acceptable that the state and not the family are the ones making this decision
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Old April 25th, 2018, 08:10 PM   #43
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It is incredibly hard to apply a data based metric to such an emotional situation. Like it or not, probability has to be taken into account.

What are the odds of his condition being reversed? And I'm not talking cost at all in this discussion.

Do we know he isn't suffering right now? No.

Is this attempt at further treatment apt to increase potential suffering to no avail? Expert opinion says yes.

Is it sad to see a cute little guy like that lose? Yes.

Does furthering attempts at treatment help him or just his parents? IMO, just his parents. And that opinion is based on what I am reading from experts.

So do you find it acceptable that the state and not the family are the ones who get to make the final decision
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Old April 25th, 2018, 09:40 PM   #44
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This is a good example of why socialism - socialized medicine, central planning, command and control - is no good. It forces the individual to take a back seat to the collective, including a child that can die as a result. This is why I don't want it in my country or anywhere near me.

I work in the healthcare industry, a not-for-profit organization, and if I ever found out that any of the hospitals or medical centers that the organization I work for did anything like this, I'd quit in disgust.

In my position (ITS & non-clinical), I constantly deal directly with all types of clinical healthcare professionals: nurses, providers (of all types - emergency services physicians, physician assistants, anesthesiologists, radiologists, psychiatrists, surgeons, ob/gyns, pediatricians, hospitalists, etc.), lab technologists, radiology technologists, therapists, pharmacists - including managers, directors, and beyond. Odds are fair that this incident will be a topic of discussion I'll come across on more than one occasion with any of them - typically something they'll bring up on their own, and in conversations with others, and based on what they have had to say about things like this in the past, what I expect them to say about this incident won't be positive.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:16 PM   #45
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So do you find it acceptable that the state and not the family are the ones who get to make the final decision
It's unclear to me which party was picking up the tab for the procedure.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by imaginethat
All points considered, humankind has been avoiding some questions regarding cases like Alfie's.

Western medicine has developed procedures and pharmaceuticals for a variety of usually serious ailments that are ridiculously expensive. Iow, they can have no wide application because the system, whether socialized or privatized, could not fund a large number of people requiring these procedures or pharmaceuticals.

Take a heart transplant. We're talking a million bucks. Intestine transplant - $1.2 million. Then, greed raises its ugly head. Remember when the manufacturers of Daraprim, used by AIDS and transplant patients, raised the price from $13.50 per pill to $750.

Back to Alfie:
Barrister Rebecca Foulkes, who is representing Alfie's parents, told the judge: "Their priority is to make sure that everything that can be done for Alfie is done."
There it is: "...to make sure everything that can be done for Alfie is done."

Is this the metric?
All of that is well and good.

What i want to know if if you find it acceptable that the state and not the family are the ones making this decision
If all the couple wanted was permission to leave the country for an alleged advanced treatment option, and they were denied, that is a travesty, unacceptable.

But if the couple wanted permission meaning the permission to have the procedure with the government paying, I think that's a case by case determination as it would be under private insurance for an out of country, alternative therapy.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:49 PM   #47
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If all the couple wanted was permission to leave the country for an alleged advanced treatment option, and they were denied, that is a travesty, unacceptable.

But if the couple wanted permission meaning the permission to have the procedure with the government paying, I think that's a case by case determination as it would be under private insurance for an out of country, alternative therapy.
What difference does it make? No matter what the case is, they ought to simply be able to take their child with them and leave if they want - no matter what. If the state is currently paying but isn't getting in their way, they could simply say "you can leave with your child and take him to another hospital in another country, but you're financially on your own, at that point."

It's not as though the parents are members of some religion that's opposed to the use of modern medical technology and are trying to prevent their child from receiving treatment for something that can be cured or treated; at least in that case it's understandable for the state to want to intervene.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:50 PM   #48
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If all the couple wanted was permission to leave the country for an alleged advanced treatment option, and they were denied, that is a travesty, unacceptable.

But if the couple wanted permission meaning the permission to have the procedure with the government paying, I think that's a case by case determination as it would be under private insurance for an out of country, alternative therapy.
I agree for the most part. Let's say for the sake of argument that they are requesting the UK pick up the tab and i do not think this is the case but let's say it is. Why couldn't the UK say.do what you want w/ your kid, we are not paying for it. But that is not what they are.doing. they are not even letting them take him from hospital. That is fucked uo.



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Evans added: “Our child is sick, but not dying and does not deserve to die. He is not terminally ill nor diagnosed. We have been trying our best to find out his condition to treat or manage it.”

“I am now here in front of Your Holiness to plea for asylum, our hospitals in the UK do not want to give disabled children the chance of life and instead the hospitals in the UK are now assisting death in children. Alfie is not dying, so we do not want to take him out the way the hospital wish us to. We see life and potential in our son and we want to bring him here to Italy, at Bambino Gesú, where we know he is safe and he will not be euthanised.”

Air Ambulance Arrives Outside Alfie Evans' Hospital to Take Him to Italy if Court Approves | LifeNews.com
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Old April 25th, 2018, 11:43 PM   #49
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Reminder that (((seamanstains))) is a Yid. Disregard everything he says.

This child has been alive for nearly two days now without life support. Paul, you say that it's for profit, but the reason why this child is not being allowed to leave for treatment is because this hospital, and every hospital, is run by the British Government. What gives the Government to decide who lives, and who dies?
How did you know I supported Tottenham Hotspur( The Yids)Football Club
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Old April 26th, 2018, 03:24 AM   #50
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Time these Nazi yanks were deported and stopped buggering about with things of which they have no understanding whatever, like human beings for instance, or decency.
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