Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Philosophy and Religion > Religion

Religion For discussion about belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 15th, 2007, 10:54 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
sear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 409
Can the existence of god be proved or disproved?

Can the existence of god be proved or disproved?



The following is a perspective on it. Technically it's a "proof".

The proof is as follows:



All that is in the cosmos can be divided into two categories.

- That which is man made.

- Everything else.

This "everything else" has a name. It's called:

"Creation."

And the existence of a "Creation" proves there is a "Creator", by definition.

If there is the former, then there MUST be the latter.

And it is tradition to call this "Creator" god. That is PRECISELY what "god" means! god is the "Creator".



Whether this "Creator" is a supernatural deity, or some non-sentient scientific process, akin perhaps to abiogenesis & evolution, we cannot yet know for absolute certain.

But we have disproved many of the extraordinary claims made by the religionists.

Quote:
"The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church." Ferdinand Magellan
If we extrapolate the trend; it's not lookin' too good for the religionists.



And yet, and yet, and yet, though religion may be as bogus as the $4 bill, is there even any point to denying Creation, and therefore the Creator, which is by definition god?



If you want to learn about god; don't waste your time with ancient superstitions.

Study god through his work. His Nature is there for all to see, enjoy, and discover.




For skeptics, no proof is possible.

For believers, no proof is necessary.

Quote:
Please, prove there is a god... Feel free to start a new thread. I will drop to my knees and accept whatever god you prove, assuming you can prove it conclusively." tad



http://www.defendingthetruth.com/rel...rapture-4.html
sear is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 10:59 AM   #2
The Chief
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Planet Earth (Mostly)
Posts: 14,314
What the hell kind of circular logic are you using?
tadpole256 is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
winston53660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
Can the existence of god be proved or disproved?



The following is a perspective on it. Technically it's a "proof".

The proof is as follows:



.




Which god/godesses is this proof of?



THE PANTHEONS



AFRICAN GODS

AUSTRALIAN GODS

AZTEC GODS

CARIBBEAN GODS

CELTIC GODS

CHINESE GODS

EGYPTIAN GODS

FINNISH GODS

GREEK GODS

INCAN GODS

JAPANESE GODS

MAYAN GODS

MESOPOTAMIAN GODS

MIDDLE-EASTERN GODS

NATIVE AMERICAN GODS

NORSE GODS

OCEANIC GODS

ROMAN GODS

SLAVIC and BALTIC GODS

SOUTH AMERICAN GODS

SOUTH-EAST ASIAN



CHRISTIAN SAINTS



Now featuring over 3,400 Gods, Goddesses, Spirits, Demons and Saints!
winston53660 is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:06 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Solon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
Can the existence of god be proved or disproved?



All that is in the cosmos can be divided into two categories.

- That which is man made.

- Everything else.

This "everything else" has a name. It's called:

"Creation."




I'm with you so far.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
And the existence of a "Creation" proves there is a "Creator", by definition.

If there is the former, then there MUST be the latter.


I am not convinced of this, the logic behind it leads to an infinite regression, who created the creator? Who created that creator? ad infinitum



Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
And it is tradition to call this "Creator" god. That is PRECISELY what "god" means! god is the "Creator".


I would not leave this as the sole requirement to be called god, a big bang event would not qualify under the definitions normally set forth.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
Whether this "Creator" is a supernatural deity, or some non-sentient scientific process, akin perhaps to abiogenesis & evolution, we cannot yet know for absolute certain.


While the cause may or may bot be sentient, I would not say that Creator and God are synonymous. God is an idea that requires an intelligence, sentience a will of some sort rather than a mindless natural process. If you wish to redefine God as whatever caused the universe to exist then you may be creating a tautology. However, I would like to see you prove the universe began to exist rather than that it has always existed in some form.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
And yet, and yet, and yet, though religion may be as bogus as the $4 bill, is there even any point to denying Creation, and therefore the Creator, which is by definition god?


As stated above it does not meet my definition of God, I will go so far as to say it meet almost no definitions of God. (But it does at least meet the one you propose in this thread and perhaps others I am unaware of)



My position remains that a certain amount of faith is required to believe in the certainty of a God or to hold the absolute belief that there is nothing divine in the universe.

Solon is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:06 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
KnightOfSappho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 2,766
Well said...



I also agree that Nature is the best way to study the Divine.
KnightOfSappho is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:11 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Solon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
And yet, and yet, and yet, though religion may be as bogus as the $4 bill, is there even any point to denying Creation, and therefore the Creator, which is by definition god?


There is of course solipsism, which denies creation and depending on your self-image (since the mind is all that exists in a solipsists view) the existence of God as well. Of course if all that exists is a single consciousness I'm not sure what the point of defining it as God or otherwise would be at that point.

Solon is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:21 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
sear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 409
Quote:
Which god/godesses is this proof of?



THE PANTHEONS



AFRICAN GODS

AUSTRALIAN GODS

AZTEC GODS

CARIBBEAN GODS

CELTIC GODS

CHINESE GODS

EGYPTIAN GODS

FINNISH GODS

GREEK GODS

INCAN GODS

JAPANESE GODS

MAYAN GODS

MESOPOTAMIAN GODS

MIDDLE-EASTERN GODS

NATIVE AMERICAN GODS

NORSE GODS

OCEANIC GODS

ROMAN GODS

SLAVIC and BALTIC GODS

SOUTH AMERICAN GODS

SOUTH-EAST ASIAN



CHRISTIAN SAINTS



Now featuring over 3,400 Gods, Goddesses, Spirits, Demons and Saints!" winston
Exactly!

Any one of them perhaps. Or perhaps not.

It does not in any way prove WHO god is. It merely proves there is a god.

Quote:
"Who created that creator? ad infinitum ..." Solon
Oh?

Who created evolution?

Quote:
"God is an idea that requires an intelligence, ..." Solon
Yes indeed! In some definitions it does!

But not all.

And we need only one definition that defines god simply as "the Creator". And we have it.

Quote:
"a big bang event would not qualify under the definitions normally set forth." Solon
Yes.

And it is a sound scientific principle that after we exclude all the other possibilities, and we are left with only one; then no matter how improbable that one remaining possibility may seem to us to be, that is in fact the answer.

In this context this can be a source of disappointment to religionists that would prefer to think otherwise.

Their disappointment is out of my control. I prefer reality based belief systems.
sear is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:28 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
KnightOfSappho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 2,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solon



While the cause may or may bot be sentient, I would not say that Creator and God are synonymous. God is an idea that requires an intelligence, sentience a will of some sort rather than a mindless natural process. If you wish to redefine God as whatever caused the universe to exist then you may be creating a tautology. However, I would like to see you prove the universe began to exist rather than that it has always existed in some form.






By the definition given one could simply say that the Universe/Nature is the creator.
KnightOfSappho is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:32 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Solon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
Oh?

Who created evolution?


I do not claim to be able to give an explanation for the origins of the universe, however your question does not address the issue your theory has with the infinite regression.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
Yes indeed! In some definitions it does!

But not all.

And we need only one definition that defines god simply as "the Creator". And we have it.


We can redefine God to mean whatever we want and create a tautology. If we simply redefine words at will or create new definitions to fit a tautology then we are not engaging in logical analysis but instead starting from a conclusion and building the tautology around it. Until all parties in this debate agree on a definition of God not much progress will be made. I am unwilling to label "whatever caused the universe" as God, what if this universe was caused by the "rebound" after a big crunch from the previous universe? Would the Big Crunch be God, the previous universe, the physical laws that existed at the end of the last universe?
Solon is offline  
Old March 15th, 2007, 11:40 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
baloney_detector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 5,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by sear
Can the existence of god be proved or disproved?



The following is a perspective on it. Technically it's a "proof".

The proof is as follows...


"The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing."





H. J. Muller
baloney_detector is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Philosophy and Religion > Religion

Tags
disproved, existence, god, proved



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
a moronic argument for god's existence amarinaccio514 Religion 12 April 15th, 2010 08:28 PM
Creationism Disproved tadpole256 Religion 1 August 22nd, 2009 02:04 PM
Existence vs. Non-existence Katczinsky Philosophy 14 August 22nd, 2007 03:01 AM
Proving God's Existence OhDear Religion 18 May 2nd, 2007 01:06 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.