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Old June 3rd, 2015, 08:15 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
For the record, wiches were never burned.
Wrong.

They weren't burned in Salem but Europe did a lot of witch burning.
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Old June 3rd, 2015, 09:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Wrong.

They weren't burned in Salem but Europe did a lot of witch burning.
I was primarily addressing the U.S. Europe did a lot of burning? When and who did the burning? Burning was rare and was primarily performed after execution, mostly by hanging.
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Old June 3rd, 2015, 10:01 AM   #13
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Really, wasn't Joan of Arc burned at the stake for being a witch? I am out of time or I would look for more information. I know people were burned but they have been political enemies and not witches?
She was burned for dressing as a man.
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Old June 3rd, 2015, 10:29 AM   #14
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While the French revered her for her accomplishments, the English declared her a heretic. Joan was captured eventually by the Burgundians, who exchanged Joan to the English for money. Joan was imprisoned for some time prior to her trial. The English tried to question her intensively during her trial, but Joan remained silent throughout. This enraged her captors, and they quickly convicted her. They sentenced her to death.

On May 30, 1431, at the age of 19, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for her crimes against the English.
- See more at: Joan Of Arc | Facts Summary Information
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Old June 3rd, 2015, 11:08 AM   #15
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The people who wrote the Torah believed in human and animal sacrifices just the same as everyone else of their time, just as today we believe what science tells us is true.
You have failed to provide any evidence for this, while the Old Testament clearly has many passages against human sacrifice.

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I am very sure the origin of the Jewish idea of God came from Eygpt and the pharaoh who tried to force the worship of one god on everyone. His understanding of God was very abstract, as religion has attempted to make our understanding of God abstract and tries to protect this abstract understanding by telling us not to worship images. But humans being as they are, they want a personal God, and they keep personalizing Him. In days of old, everyone had a patron god or goddess and that is the time of writing God's truth, a time of gods and goddesses having favorite people. Having Jesus or Mohammid makes God more personal.
Yes, so what?

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There is this constant pull between an abstract god and a god who can be known by his personality, exactly like people knew Zeus. Christians have personalized a god, and many are not knowing of the abstract God who is not a super human and does not have favorite people, and does not do special things for his special people, like help them win wars. Christians have Jesus and Muslims have Mohammad, personal define beings.
Fine with me. I prefer an absract god, but if a personal god makes Christians happy, I have no problem with that.

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You seem to want to believe people of God have always believed as you do and this just is not true, they have been superstitious from the beginning, because they believe in supernatural beings with supernatural powers and that is what superstition is.
I assume you are defining "people of God" in a modern racist manner. Clearly any race will be primitive if you go back far enough. But since I reject modern culture/thinking, I am not a racist and I think about people by culture. The culture of the Old Testament allowed each person to think of God however his intelligence permitted, with more intelligent people thinking of God abstractly while less intelligent people could interpret God as a magical personality. This is not very different from how science if viewed today, with the less intelligent people not understanding science and viewing it more like some kind of magic.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 10:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Wrong.

They weren't burned in Salem but Europe did a lot of witch burning.
Here is a link that mentions burning witches.

Witch-hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old June 5th, 2015, 10:46 AM   #17
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She was burned for dressing as a man.
That may be one of the reasons, but more important was her belief that she was doing the will of God and heard voices, as do all those who claim they have revealed truth.

http://www.historynet.com/joan-of-arc

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Joan Of Arc summary: Joan of Arc was born in 1412 in France. Most of her childhood was relatively uneventful, until in 1424, when she began having visions. In her visions, Saint Margaret, Saint Catherine, and Saint Michael told Joan that she needed to support King Charles VII and help rid France of the English. During the many battles of the Hundred Years War that were to come, despite her young age, Joan, a simple peasant girl, was instrumental in capturing Orleans. This accomplishment was immense, but she later went on to capture Rheims, Paris, and numerous other towns in an effort to free France from the English.

While the French revered her for her accomplishments, the English declared her a heretic. Joan was captured eventually by the Burgundians, who exchanged Joan to the English for money. Joan was imprisoned for some time prior to her trial. The English tried to question her intensively during her trial, but Joan remained silent throughout. This enraged her captors, and they quickly convicted her. They sentenced her to death.

On May 30, 1431, at the age of 19, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for her crimes against the English. In 1456, Pope Callixtux III declared that Joan was innocent of her crimes; at this time, she became a martyr. In 1909, Joan of Arc was beatified, which meant that she was accorded the power to intervene on behalf of those who prayed in her name. In 1920, she was canonized, which is an official declaration of Sainthood.
The argument is that people were doing these awful things, because that is the way the bible tells people to handle such problems.
Anyway here is a list of victims who were burned for being heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_as_heretics
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Last edited by Athena; June 5th, 2015 at 11:42 AM.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 11:36 AM   #18
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You have failed to provide any evidence for this, while the Old Testament clearly has many passages against human sacrifice.


Yes, so what?


Fine with me. I prefer an abstract god, but if a personal god makes Christians happy, I have no problem with that.


I assume you are defining "people of God" in a modern racist manner. Clearly any race will be primitive if you go back far enough. But since I reject modern culture/thinking, I am not a racist and I think about people by culture. The culture of the Old Testament allowed each person to think of God however his intelligence permitted, with more intelligent people thinking of God abstractly while less intelligent people could interpret God as a magical personality. This is not very different from how science if viewed today, with the less intelligent people not understanding science and viewing it more like some kind of magic.
As for the magic the Hebrews believed, I think Longwinded's post will do. That is the post 2. Obviously someone thought God wanted a human sacrifice or the story would not be in the bible, the belief is not unquie to Hebrews. That the father stopped at the least minute, does not disprove that he began with the idea that a god wanted him to sacrifice his son. He did believe this and he represents his people. Later is the story of how a man thought God would help him win a war if he sacrificed a human to Him.

Is this belief in pleasing a god and the magic of sacrifice or ritual, different if it is only animals we are sacrificing? How?

Or is there any question that the God of Jews wanted animal sacrifices just like all the others were sacrificing animals to their gods? Come on, how much proof do you need that the Hebrews were as superstitious as all the others, because this is just how people thought back then.

And so what if the Hebrews worship the Egyptian pharaoh's God and use the Sumerian stories of the flood and creation. It means their religion was not a revealed to them religion, but that they came to know of their religion as humans come to know of things. They hear or read what others have to say, and include it in their understanding of life or not. From their understanding of God and sacrifices to their understanding of creation, it all comes from common ideas at their time and was not special information from a God to special people.

We seem to agree about having an abstract god. The problem is people are not staying with an abstract god, but think they have a special connection with god, and can manipulate this god, and know the will of this god, and from here are exclusive dividing believers, as they believe, from non-believers.

Your last paragraph is totally confusing. Why would you ask for evidence that Hebrews didn't believe and act just like everyone else when you hold that they did?
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Old June 5th, 2015, 11:57 AM   #19
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I was thinking more along the lines of repulsive superstitious beliefs when I started this thread, but Longwinded's post 2 pushes me to think in more legal terms and how the bible was used to determined legal activity.

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God Commands Burning Humans

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Heresy is doing a terrible thing and it was punished by burning. I think we can credit the bible with this brutal legal behavior.

Heresy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs.[1] Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one's religion, principles or cause,[2] and blasphemy, which is irreverence toward religion.[3]
Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for heresy.

Last edited by Athena; June 5th, 2015 at 12:10 PM.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 07:06 PM   #20
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As for the magic the Hebrews believed, I think Longwinded's post will do. That is the post 2. Obviously someone thought God wanted a human sacrifice or the story would not be in the bible, the belief is not unquie to Hebrews. That the father stopped at the least minute, does not disprove that he began with the idea that a god wanted him to sacrifice his son. He did believe this and he represents his people. Later is the story of how a man thought God would help him win a war if he sacrificed a human to Him.
LongWinded's post is long-winded. I can discuss any specific issue you want, but not a long list.

You clearly misunderstand the story of the sacrifice of Isaac. Human sacrifice was common at that time. But God rejected the sacrifice and prevented it. Any other god of that time would have accepted the human sacrifice. So that is the point, that unlike other gods, God does not want human sacrifice.

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Is this belief in pleasing a god and the magic of sacrifice or ritual, different if it is only animals we are sacrificing? How?
Yes because the priests get a tasty meal.

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And so what if the Hebrews worship the Egyptian pharaoh's God and use the Sumerian stories of the flood and creation. It means their religion was not a revealed to them religion, but that they came to know of their religion as humans come to know of things. They hear or read what others have to say, and include it in their understanding of life or not. From their understanding of God and sacrifices to their understanding of creation, it all comes from common ideas at their time and was not special information from a God to special people.
I don't believe in the supernatural, so I interpret "revelation" as "inspiration". What really happened 3000 years ago, we will never know, but I personally would like to believe that Moses was a really smart guy who mixed Hebrew and Egyptian ideas with his own inspiration and produced the religion of the Israelites.

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We seem to agree about having an abstract god. The problem is people are not staying with an abstract god, but think they have a special connection with god, and can manipulate this god, and know the will of this god, and from here are exclusive dividing believers, as they believe, from non-believers.
Some like spicy food and some like mild food. I like mild food, but I don't have anything against people who like spicy food. Similarly, I like thinking of God as abstract, but I have nothing against people thinking of God as concrete/personal.

Fanatics of every belief system divide believers from non-believers. Atheists are a prime example. Even those who divide believers and non-believers of science offend me. I think a person's belief system is no more relevant than his taste in food. But in this, I am almost alone in the modern world. Modern Liberals, Christians, and Muslims are unbelievably intolerant of other beliefs. In contrast, the Old Testament is very tolerant of belief systems that don't risk corrupting the Israelites with decadence. See Jeremiah 35.

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Your last paragraph is totally confusing. Why would you ask for evidence that Hebrews didn't believe and act just like everyone else when you hold that they did?
The whole point of the religion of the Old Testament was to encourage people to behave morally and rationally, and to reject superstition. Just because the Hebrews/Israelites didn't follow the religion perfectly doesn't change what the religion teaches. There are a number of specific commandments in the Torah against superstition and I can look them up if you want.
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