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Old June 6th, 2015, 07:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Franklin View Post
LongWinded's post is long-winded. I can discuss any specific issue you want, but not a long list.
How well can an argument go with someone who has ignored information of the subject?

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You clearly misunderstand the story of the sacrifice of Isaac. Human sacrifice was common at that time. But God rejected the sacrifice and prevented it. Any other god of that time would have accepted the human sacrifice. So that is the point, that unlike other gods, God does not want human sacrifice.
How did some people come to know of God's rejection of a common practice and belief that gods want sacrifices?

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Yes because the priests get a tasty meal.
The sacrifices are not about what priest want, but what a god has commanded. The bible clearly tells us God wants us to sacrifice the first born to him, and it spells out what and how sacrifices are to be made, as God commands. Even though the boy was not sacrificed, a sacrifice had to be made to a god who wanted to smell something burning. Does that sound reasonable to you?


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I don't believe in the supernatural, so I interpret "revelation" as "inspiration". What really happened 3000 years ago, we will never know, but I personally would like to believe that Moses was a really smart guy who mixed Hebrew and Egyptian ideas with his own inspiration and produced the religion of the Israelites.
There is an important difference between human inspiration and God's commandments. Also if God is not a supernatural being, what is God? Is Satan a real force, or what? How about the demons people counted flying out of people when Jesus touched them?

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Some like spicy food and some like mild food. I like mild food, but I don't have anything against people who like spicy food. Similarly, I like thinking of God as abstract, but I have nothing against people thinking of God as concrete/personal.
This is a matter of being superstitious or not. To believe in a god who effects our lives as He sees fit, and can be influenced by our prayers or burning candles, or sacrifices, is to be superstitious. Thinking this god wants us to go to war and will help us win a war, is a very dangerous belief, and it troubles me that many think like this. Billy Graham did a very impressive Christmas TV show about how God wants people to serve in Iraq, and there was a very intentional media control associating the bombing of Baghdad with God's will and power.

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Fanatics of every belief system divide believers from non-believers. Atheists are a prime example. Even those who divide believers and non-believers of science offend me. I think a person's belief system is no more relevant than his taste in food. But in this, I am almost alone in the modern world. Modern Liberals, Christians, and Muslims are unbelievably intolerant of other beliefs. In contrast, the Old Testament is very tolerant of belief systems that don't risk corrupting the Israelites with decadence. See Jeremiah 35.
A person's beliefs determine how a person will vote and things like accepting replacing liberal education with amoral education for technology.
How people understand reality is very important!


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The whole point of the religion of the Old Testament was to encourage people to behave morally and rationally, and to reject superstition. Just because the Hebrews/Israelites didn't follow the religion perfectly doesn't change what the religion teaches. There are a number of specific commandments in the Torah against superstition and I can look them up if you want.
Religion is superstition. It is about appeasing a god and winning wars. I don't care how many times the bible speaks against superstition, it is superstition. Many Christians never do anything about bad things, except pray, and this antagonistic to democracy which must be about understanding cause and effect and taking action. The difference also involves moral judgement with those who understand morals about cause and effect having a higher morality than those who have a religious understanding of morals and run on fear of God and hope of being rewarded, instead of doing the right thing, because they understand cause and effect.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 10:31 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
How well can an argument go with someone who has ignored information of the subject?
Ignoring trivia and worthless arguments is reasonable.

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How did some people come to know of God's rejection of a common practice and belief that gods want sacrifices?
I don't understand this question. The point is that God did reject human sacrifice in the Old Testament, and the subject of this thread is "Old testament and human sacrifice".

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The sacrifices are not about what priest want, but what a god has commanded. The bible clearly tells us God wants us to sacrifice the first born to him, and it spells out what and how sacrifices are to be made, as God commands. Even though the boy was not sacrificed, a sacrifice had to be made to a god who wanted to smell something burning. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Sure. It's more motivating for most people to do this for God than for the growling stomach of a priest.

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There is an important difference between human inspiration and God's commandments. Also if God is not a supernatural being, what is God? Is Satan a real force, or what? How about the demons people counted flying out of people when Jesus touched them?
I only follow the Old Testament, and no demons there. As for the rest, it is all personification of natural forces. Before people had developed enough math to describe natural forces with math, people described natural forces by personifying them. Consider Proverbs 8 which personifies Wisdom as a woman. This was simply the technique of that time to explain concepts, by personifying them. God is no different. God is a personification of the forces of nature/science. The concept that God is one is quite similar to Newton's realization that gravity is one, namely that there are universal forces of nature across time and space.

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This is a matter of being superstitious or not. To believe in a god who effects our lives as He sees fit, and can be influenced by our prayers or burning candles, or sacrifices, is to be superstitious. Thinking this god wants us to go to war and will help us win a war, is a very dangerous belief, and it troubles me that many think like this. Billy Graham did a very impressive Christmas TV show about how God wants people to serve in Iraq, and there was a very intentional media control associating the bombing of Baghdad with God's will and power.
Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that God is influenced by any of things listed. What it does say is that if people are moral, they will be rewarded by God (meaning the forces of history), and this is quite true.

As for people like Billy Graham, they are living violations of the third commandment, not to misuse God's name.

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A person's beliefs determine how a person will vote and things like accepting replacing liberal education with amoral education for technology.
How people understand reality is very important!
I am not sure how you define "liberal education" but the classical education system including universities that we have today was put in place by Christians and is currently being destroyed by secular liberals. The 2 biggest belief systems, Christianity and Islam, have both had very enlightened periods and very bad periods. Some beliefs do matter, in particular whether you believe that truth comes from within yourself (bad) or from the outside world (good). But most beliefs don't really matter much.

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Religion is superstition.
This is completely false. I assume you haven't read the Old Testament based on this statement. Religion is morality. Superstition is added later to appeal to the stupid. This also happened to Buddhism and Taoism.

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I don't care how many times the bible speaks against superstition, it is superstition.
You sound like a fundamentalist here. You are saying "I don't care about the facts, it is what I say it is".

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Many Christians never do anything about bad things, except pray, and this antagonistic to democracy which must be about understanding cause and effect and taking action. The difference also involves moral judgement with those who understand morals about cause and effect having a higher morality than those who have a religious understanding of morals and run on fear of God and hope of being rewarded, instead of doing the right thing, because they understand cause and effect.
Modern Christianity is a disgrace and a total violation of the Bible (even the New Testament). But the topic of this thread is the Old Testament. Those Christians in history who took the Old Testament seriously, like the Puritans did, were very moral and action oriented.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 04:14 PM   #23
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This link says we will not find demons in the old testament, and then seems to argue the belief in demons did exist? I don't know. I am really tired and nothing is making much sense to me, but it is the wrong time to sleep so I am pushing myself.

link> Demons in the Old Testament

Perhaps we should speak of Zoroastrianism and the forces of good and evil, and how the king of Persia freed the Hebrews from Babylon and paid for the rebuilding of the temple in Isreal, because the beliefs of Judaism and Zoroastrianism had so much in common?
link> https://books.google.com/books?id=QB...ianism&f=false

Mirtha came before Jesus and the Jesus myth seems built on Mirtha. I think this link gives a good understanding of what people were thinking about when they sacrificed a bull. link> http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html#Blood

Here is an excellent explanation of religious animal sacrifice. link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice

The Greeks and Romans sacrificed animals to their gods, but around the 5 th century this became unpopular.

Last edited by Athena; June 7th, 2015 at 07:24 AM.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 04:20 PM   #24
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I've always been partial to the Greek gods myself. They often showed the most delightful human frailties. And those dudes and dudettes knew how to party.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
That may be one of the reasons, but more important was her belief that she was doing the will of God and heard voices, as do all those who claim they have revealed truth.

Joan of Arc



The argument is that people were doing these awful things, because that is the way the bible tells people to handle such problems.
Anyway here is a list of victims who were burned for being heretics.

List of people burned as heretics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a little more complicated than that. She was set-up and had already signed a paper for her freedom if she never talked of hearing from God or dressed as a man again. She never knew what she signed, and when she asked for her men's attire to prevent rape, and mentioned she had heard from God, then came the burning. The entire trial was a travesty as well.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 09:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
I've always been partial to the Greek gods myself. They often showed the most delightful human frailties. And those dudes and dudettes knew how to party.
The Jewish/Christian god shows a bunch of human frailties as well.

Yahweh didn't create man in his image, men created Yahweh in theirs.
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Old June 7th, 2015, 07:49 AM   #27
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This is from a link above.
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Judaism[edit]
See main article: Korban
Many Jewish sources discuss the deeper meaning behind korbanot. For example, Sefer Hachinuch explains that an individual bringing an animal sacrifice for a sin understands that he personally should have been sacrificed as punishment for the rebellion against God inherent in his sin, but God mercifully accepts the sacrifice in his or her place. Furthermore, it is considered fitting that an animal is used as a sacrifice because at the moment of sin, the individual in question disregarded his elevated human soul, effectively acting as an animal.

In Kapparot, a rooster is sacrificed on the afternoon before Yom Kippur. The purpose of the sacrifice being the expiation of the sins of the man as the chicken symbolically receives the man's sins, which is based on the reconciliation of Isaiah 1:18 in the Hebrew Bible.

The Samaritans,[2] a group historically related to the Jews, practice animal sacrifice in accordance with the Law of Moses.
The argument is that their belief is not superstition. Yet their belief involves a god who can be pleased or displeased, right? Also if a sin can be transferred to a chicken, what is it? And what of the scapegoat, how is it different from another tribes tree that has a bad spirits? Only something made of matter can be transferred, right? Isn't this belief superstition like voodoo medicine?

Then we have the matter of what should be punishable by death? I guess it is nice that they refine the idea of killing people for doing wrong with fines, and sacrifices to a god, but really is killing an animal going to change anything? Protestants rejected the idea of indulgences, but how different is it to sacrifice an animal to God in place of one's own life, or making a nice donation to the church? Both are about appeasing a god with the idea that a god will please us if we please him, and I don't things work this way.

The important thing to me is that we can not undo the damage of a wrong by sacrificing animals. I can not get away with eating a lot of chocolate, by sacrificing animals to a God. Backing into someone's car in a parking lot and driving off is not made okay by sacrificing a goat to God. I may feel better about myself if I think a God now approves of me, but the consequences of what we do are what they are.

These rituals may be no more than good psychology, but I don't think this is how religious people see them?

One more thing, the belief includes the notion of a soul. If we have souls, I do not know why an animal would not have a soul? We are told in heaven the lion will lie down with the sheep, as though a lion is going to eat grass with his set of teeth. Whatever, I am more okay with the possibility of reincarnating as an animal, than I am with humans having a soul and not animals.

Last edited by Athena; June 7th, 2015 at 07:56 AM.
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Old November 7th, 2016, 01:47 PM   #28
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Let us be very clear about this, the god of the old testament can be manipulated to do the will of man, with human sacrifices. The effort is to whitewash this and claim it is some other god, some other people who sacrifice humans to a god, not the line of Jews, god's chosen people who do such a thing. The plain fact is, the Hebrews understanding of how things work, was no different from others at that time. They all believed that a god wanted bloody sacrifices, and, in fact, even prefers them to offerings of vegetables from the garden (Cain and Able). It is a superstitious belief, regardless of if one is sacrificing a bull, lamb or human, and it is part of Judaism and Christianity (eating the bread and wine, the body and blood of Jesus). It is not the science of truth.

click here for the link> Human Sacrifice, the Talmud, and the Moloch Problem
The human sacrifice started with hellfire with the Jews or should b call them isralities. Furthermore they r not the chosen ppl anymore bc they betrayed jesus and branched away from the one true religion JW.
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Old November 7th, 2016, 03:02 PM   #29
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The human sacrifice started with hellfire with the Jews or should b call them isralities. Furthermore they r not the chosen ppl anymore bc they betrayed jesus and branched away from the one true religion JW.
Oh hell, EVERYONE thinks that whatever religion THEY happen to practice is the "one true religion."
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Old November 7th, 2016, 04:07 PM   #30
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Only muslims and catholics thinker one true religion.
Perhaps mostly wrong thing happen.
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