Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Philosophy and Religion > Religion

Religion For discussion about belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values


Thanks Tree20Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 29th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #21
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 28,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
Evolution and adaptivity are two different things, one is real the other a theory. We see adaptivity every day. No one has witnessed evolution. No one.
Galapagos finches caught in act of becoming new species - BBC News
Thanks from imaginethat and Neil
RNG is offline  
Old November 29th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 58,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
"The closed minds of the atheist..."?

I would suggest that atheists possess the most open minds of anyone.
Nearly every atheist started out as a believer, because they had been told to believe in God by people they trusted.
But because their minds were open, they could reason out that the arguments for God were pretty weak, and the arguments for a natural world were much stronger, even though this went against what they had been taught.

Just sayin'
The God of the Bible defined as you had been taught or taught yourself. And the feeling of betrayal.

I was blessed with a mom and dad who did not force any of their beliefs onto me, nor were my greater family members church-goers.

Certain true believers and most atheists do believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. They're both wrong, in my opinion.

When we have avatars telling us we create the reality we experience and quantum physicist's talking about Schrödinger's Cat and cross-universe quantum entanglement events with no mathematical prohibition on how far apart two entangled particles can be. Any form of communication, or entanglement events occur irrespective of their distance apart.

In some "magic" way, the particles communicate at speeds vastly greater than light, some other realm that is a part of our realm though we're virtually blind to it.

Both Jesus and Schrödinger talked about the role of mind in creating the reality we experience, the critical role.

The "cosmic" paradigm is about to shift. The natural and the supernatural will come together. Each house will have some housecleaning to do. None of the purists will be happy.
imaginethat is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 05:04 AM   #23
I'm debt free
 
TNVolunteer73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lebanon, TN
Posts: 34,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
The question assumes something that might not be true. It assumes that the universe came into existence, regardless of by "accident" (whatever that means) or by design, but what if the universe didn't "come into existence" at all, has always existed, and always will exist?

Suppose it did somehow come into existence from nothing (nevermind that it seems to contradict the 1st law of thermodynamics), how do we test that? Also, what you offer here fails to provide a way of observing, measuring, or performing an experiment that I can repeat to draw the same conclusion or results that anyone else has done.


I'm looking for something that is free of the need & dependency on faith. For example, if someone claims I can get a certain chemical compound from a formula they provide, and I try out the formula to see whether or not I end up with that certain chemical compound, it will either work or not work. It's testable and falsifiable. Whether or not that formula works has nothing to do with faith; it has to do with it either works or it doesn't work - that's it.
Creation cannot be separate from faith.

Either it happened by accident (example 2 singularities colliding which cased the Big Bang, )

or

God Said Let their be light and the big bang occurred, or as the Big Bang was explained in the 2nd Book of Ramayan in the Hindi faith.


Either the universe was created by design or it was not. (FYI the term that King James translated as "Day" is "yom" which means period of time. So the universe being 6000 years or 8 billion years in existence is not an issue. Also The Bible explains relative time theory of Einstein as well as anyone can).

Faith comes in on which ever you accept to be accurate

Last edited by TNVolunteer73; November 30th, 2017 at 05:09 AM.
TNVolunteer73 is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 05:14 AM   #24
I'm debt free
 
TNVolunteer73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lebanon, TN
Posts: 34,862
They didn't become a new species, they are still finches. they are all under the same classification of Aves.
TNVolunteer73 is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 05:14 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 10,454
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
The God of the Bible defined as you had been taught or taught yourself. And the feeling of betrayal.

I was blessed with a mom and dad who did not force any of their beliefs onto me, nor were my greater family members church-goers.

Certain true believers and most atheists do believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. They're both wrong, in my opinion.

When we have avatars telling us we create the reality we experience and quantum physicist's talking about Schrödinger's Cat and cross-universe quantum entanglement events with no mathematical prohibition on how far apart two entangled particles can be. Any form of communication, or entanglement events occur irrespective of their distance apart.

In some "magic" way, the particles communicate at speeds vastly greater than light, some other realm that is a part of our realm though we're virtually blind to it.

Both Jesus and Schrödinger talked about the role of mind in creating the reality we experience, the critical role.

The "cosmic" paradigm is about to shift. The natural and the supernatural will come together. Each house will have some housecleaning to do. None of the purists will be happy.

Quantum entanglement is an observed phenomenon, it isn't supernatural.
The point is that atheists for the most part, have made the journey, opening their minds and following their observations to where they currently reside.

People of faith for the most part are right where they were born, going to the same church, proclaiming the same beliefs that they were taught as children, and rejecting anything that challenges their belief without any more than a cursory examination.

Which path is more likely to lead closer to the truth?
goober is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 10:16 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 58,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Quantum entanglement is an observed phenomenon, it isn't supernatural.
The point is that atheists for the most part, have made the journey, opening their minds and following their observations to where they currently reside.

People of faith for the most part are right where they were born, going to the same church, proclaiming the same beliefs that they were taught as children, and rejecting anything that challenges their belief without any more than a cursory examination.

Which path is more likely to lead closer to the truth?
QE is supernatural only in the sense that a 3D+T explanation of it isn't available, nor does one seem possible within the Standard Model. The demonstrated utter violation of "nothing can travel faster than the speed of light" principle means we've missed something big.

I reject the division of people into the logical and the faith-based. It's an arbitrary division. True, the people of faith you described are as you say they are, but then you've got people like me who argue for intelligences greater, much greater, than us, intelligences that indeed may reside outside of our universe, and, who indeed may have played a role in designing the laws that govern the universe.

Those logical thinkers who out of hand reject intelligences greater than us are similar to those scientists who once believed the earth, later the sun, is the center of the universe. Many logical thinkers cannot think larger than our universe, when nothing in our science prohibits multiple perhaps infinite numbers of universes.

Even the contention that "god" cannot be a personal god is suspect. The technology necessary to track every human on earth exists, and our science is very young.
imaginethat is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 10:17 AM   #27
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 28,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Quantum entanglement is an observed phenomenon, it isn't supernatural.
The point is that atheists for the most part, have made the journey, opening their minds and following their observations to where they currently reside.

People of faith for the most part are right where they were born, going to the same church, proclaiming the same beliefs that they were taught as children, and rejecting anything that challenges their belief without any more than a cursory examination.

Which path is more likely to lead closer to the truth?
Quantum entanglement is observed. It has not been explained. That the earth exists is observed, it has not been explained.

Hell, even the fact that two masses attract each other falls into that category.

I have seen no evidence that the god of the bible exists and I have seen lots of evidence that it does not.

But there is no evidence for or against "the force" or whatever name you wish to apply to it.

To that point, IT and I agree. Where we differ is that it appears to me that he thinks "the force" is a benefit and a guide in some nebulous way to him.

I don't think it knows I exist or cares.
RNG is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 10:37 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 58,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNG View Post
Quantum entanglement is observed. It has not been explained. That the earth exists is observed, it has not been explained.

Hell, even the fact that two masses attract each other falls into that category.

I have seen no evidence that the god of the bible exists and I have seen lots of evidence that it does not.

But there is no evidence for or against "the force" or whatever name you wish to apply to it.

To that point, IT and I agree. Where we differ is that it appears to me that he thinks "the force" is a benefit and a guide in some nebulous way to him.

I don't think it knows I exist or cares.
That's important to you and other atheists, but I've never understood why it is SO important. But it is. However, if our technology has the potential to track every human on earth, which it does have, then it's no stretch to think that "gods" would have similar abilities or technologies to do likewise.

A constant in these conversations: the identity of "God" is the one offered by the Bible.

Limiting oneself to that definition is an error. Whatever "the source" is, the explanations offered by religions are exactly analogous to the blind men and the elephant.
imaginethat is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 11:24 AM   #29
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 28,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
That's important to you and other atheists, but I've never understood why it is SO important. But it is. However, if our technology has the potential to track every human on earth, which it does have, then it's no stretch to think that "gods" would have similar abilities or technologies to do likewise.

A constant in these conversations: the identity of "God" is the one offered by the Bible.

Limiting oneself to that definition is an error. Whatever "the source" is, the explanations offered by religions are exactly analogous to the blind men and the elephant.
I have no doubt that "the force" could track every human on earth. I know why governments and corporations would want to do so. I can't figure out why "the force" would want to.

More importantly, you seem to feel that you have experienced and benefited from this attention. I have never seen anything that needed "the force's" personal intervention to explain an affect on an individual, and I have seen many individuals, including good people in both the secular and religious meanings get royally screwed.

As I have often said, if ever I start seeing a better outcome for believers and a decrease in the horrible fate so many, in particular little kids suffer, I will seriously re-examine my belief. And yes, I openly admit it is a belief.

Last edited by RNG; November 30th, 2017 at 11:27 AM.
RNG is offline  
Old November 30th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #30
I'm debt free
 
TNVolunteer73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lebanon, TN
Posts: 34,862
Either my faith is incorrect:

1. because there is NO god

2. I worship the wrong God

or it is correct.

That is the same for Atheists, Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists ... ... ... and so on.
TNVolunteer73 is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Philosophy and Religion > Religion

Tags
creationists, question



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Avoid Taxes Creationists Sell Ark Park To Themselves For $10 imaginethat Current Events 11 July 24th, 2017 12:46 PM
List of scientists who became creationists after studying the evidence. Nwolfe35 Atheism 95 December 14th, 2013 07:43 AM
Why People Laugh at Creationists... tadpole256 Religion 6 September 4th, 2009 06:50 PM
How to Shut-Up Creationists... tadpole256 Religion 5 August 31st, 2009 09:08 PM
Hey Creationists! Explain this... tadpole256 Religion 34 July 31st, 2007 08:32 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.