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Old December 1st, 2017, 08:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
We'll never agree. I believe your attempt to understand the motives of intelligence that is capable of creating a universe and us through human analogs is failed from the onset.
If you are saying that my whimsy about a science fair project is failed, hell, I agree.

But what makes you think someone as powerful and expansive and all encompassing gives a rat's ass about me? Or you?
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Old December 1st, 2017, 09:16 PM   #42
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"The closed minds of the atheist..."?

I would suggest that atheists possess the most open minds of anyone.
Nearly every atheist started out as a believer, because they had been told to believe in God by people they trusted.
But because their minds were open, they could reason out that the arguments for God were pretty weak, and the arguments for a natural world were much stronger, even though this went against what they had been taught.

Just sayin'
I went through that process too. But, it's bullshit to say that atheists are open minded about their core beliefs...and Yes, atheists have to go beyond "lack of belief in God." An atheist has to adopt or create their own naturalistic theory of the world. and once someone becomes an atheist, I think it's laughable to contend...like celebrity atheists do, that they will just turn on a dime as soon as someone proves the existence of Good to them. You can bet for damn sure, that the average atheist protects thos core naturalistic explanations as fervently as the average Christian or other religious believer.

And then there's the issue of 'how do atheists fill out their worldview and decide how to act in this world. There may be some differences in political theory, but I'm waiting to meet the atheist-humanist who is not a tech worshipper, and does not believe in the enlightenment view of human history rising out of misery and savagery to an ever brighter and better world of the future provided for us NOT by God, but by human ingenuity and invention. Evne with all the shit we're facing today...ecological or nuclear annihilation, the techies pass it off as just a few bumps along the road!

For me, I've gone back to the agnostic position on the great mysteries of this world we're born into...and without realizing it for a long time, one of the reasons came after reading physicist/science fiction writer-James Gardner's Biocosm Hypothesis...which he intended as a way around that 'fine-tuned universe' problem. Gardner's Biocosm envisions a metaverse where 'highly evolved intelligences with a superior command of physics spawn baby universes engineered to be able to give birth to new, intelligent life.'
http://evodevouniverse.com/wiki/Self...osm_hypothesis
Sounds pretty out there! But, imagine if it was true! All the back n forth arguments about whether God created the Universe or it naturally came to be would all be off base, and the possibility makes me think all kinds of people on the God/no God debate have drawn conclusions based on little or no evidence, if it could turn out that it's those damn aliens creating life-bearing worlds out there.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 12:21 AM   #43
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If you are saying that my whimsy about a science fair project is failed, hell, I agree.

But what makes you think someone as powerful and expansive and all encompassing gives a rat's ass about me? Or you?
Because I've experienced direct contact for most of my life, since around 5. Contact always is beneficial. Twice, contact resulted in my avoiding serious injury or death, and amazingly both times a witness was present.

Anyone who wants to call me nuts, please do.

Why is it so difficult for you to imagine someone or some group of beings could give a rat's ass about you? Or me?
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 10:18 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Because I've experienced direct contact for most of my life, since around 5. Contact always is beneficial. Twice, contact resulted in my avoiding serious injury or death, and amazingly both times a witness was present.

Anyone who wants to call me nuts, please do.

Why is it so difficult for you to imagine someone or some group of beings could give a rat's ass about you? Or me?
Some one or some group with some connection, fine. But something with the power and scope to create a universe and perhaps way more being concerned about the insignificant little minute inconsequential speck of near nothing that I am, I just can't see it.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 05:11 PM   #45
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Some one or some group with some connection, fine. But something with the power and scope to create a universe and perhaps way more being concerned about the insignificant little minute inconsequential speck of near nothing that I am, I just can't see it.
Why?
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 05:12 PM   #46
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Why?
My insignificance in the totality of the universe. And it doesn't hurt my ego at all.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 07:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Asimov View Post
Precisely. I don't think any rational person would deny the benefits of science in this regard.



Here where inquiry departs from the realm of pure science and enters into the realm of faith. No one has either observed OR tested the alleged "science" of the Big Bang OR of the origins of man. We are still searching. These are, as you say, theories. Like all theories they are based not upon proven facts but upon assumptions grounded in presuppositions and opinion. That is why they remain theory and not fact. The problem arises when one claims in the name of science to have solved what remains a mystery. They fall into the error of "I think/suppose/theorize, therefore I have attained a monopoly on all truth, and anyone who disagrees with me or points out the holes in my opinion/supposition/theory must therefore unscientific and stupid." And genuine learning runs up against a wall of subtle arrogance that leads to pointless and sometimes false conclusions.
Evolutionary biology actually has benefits & applications, according to:
ENSI/SENSI Papers & Articles:Applied Evol.
Evolutionary Biology for the 21st Century
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 07:56 PM   #48
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My insignificance in the totality of the universe. And it doesn't hurt my ego at all.
How do you know that we, individually and collectively, are manifesting this universe?

Both avatars and scientists say we are, the scientists calling it "collapsing the wave function."

Iow, how do you know you're insignificant? I understand that you've been battling the fundie menace, but I'm not talking about the biblical God or any other religion's equivalent.

How can we know that we have enough awareness to see a bigger picture? Radioactive decay is a fact, yet it wasn't observed until it was, until the means to observe it existed, and the observation of radioactive decay led to a theory to explain what was going on.

I firmly believe the same is happening now with ... something. Something is right in front of our faces, but we don't "see" it.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 07:58 PM   #49
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You base a theory of evolution on science? Where is the science? A man stepped foot on an island and saw animals he'd never seen before. His presumption was that life started as a single cell, then evolved into what we see today. Pretty ambiguous. But the self serving found this an easy escape from ridicule, judgment or guilt.
But i digress, there is no scientific proof of either. Evolution or Creation. So Faith must play a role in your question.
Nope, it doesn't in the same sense faith in Creationism comes from someone's literal interpretation of religious texts.

Actually for science there are plenty of discoveries that back and corroborate the theory of evolution:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/8-scientific...eal-1729902558

When discoveries help science produce vaccines, cures, antibiotics, and other things that are helpful in the field of medicine to fight disease, it's no longer a matter of faith, anymore, it's a matter of results from no longer being sick & being alive when we would otherwise have died.

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The Big Bang Theory, How about... Let there be light? Book 1 verse 3. Sounds ridiculous to put the two together, but.. what the heck.
Yeah, I agree, it does seem like religious influence may have played a role in the promotion of the "Big Bang Theory" (i.e., there may be some bias involved): https://news.wgbh.org/post/big-bang-...holic-creation

I don't subscribe or embrace the "Big Bang Theory", what I consider more plausible is what I posted here:
big bang, eh?

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Originally Posted by Kate View Post
That's my opinion, and that's all you'll get here, or anywhere. 'Opinion is the only truth to the universe'. My quote.
Well established, reliable scientific observations of nature can only be truth; opinions OTOH can be either true or false.

At least with the theory of evolution we can show how observations of nature led us to it, and we have applied it to our benefit. For that reason I'm fine with teaching it in schools as science/fact/truth & students and scientists are always free to challenge it with more observations of nature to reveal any flaws or problems (this is done all the time, it's part of science). What are the observations of nature for creationism or intelligent design? I don't know of any observations of nature that can lead us to it; all I can determine is that it's derived from religious texts.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 08:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
Creation cannot be separate from faith.

Either it happened by accident (example 2 singularities colliding which cased the Big Bang, )

or

God Said Let their be light and the big bang occurred, or as the Big Bang was explained in the 2nd Book of Ramayan in the Hindi faith.


Either the universe was created by design or it was not. (FYI the term that King James translated as "Day" is "yom" which means period of time. So the universe being 6000 years or 8 billion years in existence is not an issue. Also The Bible explains relative time theory of Einstein as well as anyone can).

Faith comes in on which ever you accept to be accurate
I'm not a fan of the "Big Bang Theory" (I don't embrace it or subscribe to it:
big bang, eh?), but I can at least see how it seems to be an observation of the universe that can be made scientifically.
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